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Sarah · Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:10 am Post subject: Sarah's Wincest Manifesto

Hi guys! I'm Sarah. You may know me as That Verbose Girl from threads like "Thoughts on the Latest Episode". So now that I've qualified what sort of post this is going to be (v srs bsns), feel free to read on, or run away screaming! Smile

Let's begin, shall we?
ETA: For the sake of Katrina, I have bolded the start of my actual argument. It makes this post a little shorter, y/y.

FACT: Sarah is a Wincest fan.

Yes, it's true. Call me a tinhat all you like, but I just cannot avoid seeing all the slashy subtext in our beloved show. I can't. And there's a lot of reasons for that. But first, I wanted to point something out:

MYTH: Because she enjoys Wincest, Sarah enjoys all incest pairings, thinks it's okay and wants to have sex with her own sibling.

SO MUCH NO.

Disclaimer:
Sam and Dean are a very special case for me. I have my reasons for shipping them together, and my explanations for why it does not squick me out like incest ships normally do. None of those reasons are that I enjoy incest pairings as a rule, that I want to have sex with ANY family member of mine including/especially my little brother, or that I think incest should be accepted and celebrated in society. I am perfectly aware that most real life incestuous relationships are non-consensual relationships that often involve a young child or children and are either very damaging to the person(s)'s mind(s) due to the abuse they suffer, or end up having consequences like children with certain genetic disadvantages due to a lack of variation in the gene pool. I am WELL AWARE of this.

I am also completely aware that there are situations where adults enter incestuous relationships, sometimes even without realising it (ie. separated adopted siblings, cousins, etc who didn't know). These are obviously somewhat rare cases, and while I don't understand why someone would willingly enter a relationship with someone they grew up with, I have no right to tell them what to do. I am not saying I agree with or condone these relationships, simply that they are adults and I have no power over them and what they do in their bedrooms, and thus, I have no say. I am not part of a governmental body and I don't know anybody in this situation, so I stay farrrr away from the subject.

I am going to step out on a limb here and make the suggestion that in general, most of the Wincest fans in the Supernatural fandom understand these same things, often do not condone incestuous relationships in real life or at least not adolescent/non-consensual ones, and have no desire themselves to have sex with a family member. As proof of this suggestion, I would point you to Sweet Charity, a fan-run auction for fanworks where all of the money contributed goes to the charity "RAINN" (Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network). I would argue, based on this and what I've seen of Wincest meta, that the Wincest portion of the fandom understands the consequences usually involved in incestuous relationships in real life and that their reading/writing preferences as far as FANFICTION goes are simply about FICTION. They are not real and do not in any way reflect the real life morals and behaviours of that person.

Using myself as an example, I could never look at my little brother in a sexual manner. I just couldn't. I have grown up with that boy, cared for that boy, and developed a friendship with boy over the course of my life, and while he is one of the people I love most? EW. Just ewwww. No.

I want to make this perfectly clear, because I have often pointed out similarities between my brother and me, and Sam and Dean. I know all of you could cite examples of me pointing out that I am much like Sam as far as being the bookish nerd goes, and very much like Dean as far as being the older sibling who is responsible for the younger sibling goes. And vice versa for my kid brother. These are simply similarities between our personality traits and our older/younger sibling status.

And yes, I also watch the show without my tinhat on. While I can't ignore the subtext, I have the ability to put it aside and look at the show from a different perspective -- the 'gen' perspective where the boys are just siblings. This tends to happen, though, when I'm thinking about their relationship before the show. I do not like to think of kids in sexual relationships. I just don't. Especially not with adults. As an adult myself, I cannot look at a 12 year old and think anything but "you should not be having sex! do you even wear a training bra yet???" (This is totally personal preference I'm talking about here.) Thus, when I'm reading pre-show fic, it tends to be of the gen variety. This is when I really enjoy the sibling-dynamic-motivated stories most. I feel like the fact that they are siblings is most obvious when there's such an huge age gap. The difference in maturity and intelligence levels at 8 and 12 is vastly different than 22 and 26. And while I enjoy their adult relationship SO MUCH, I feel like I relate more to the stories where they're kids because many of the fics use things that I have similar memories of. I am also not an older sibling with an adult sibling just yet, so their adult relationship is sort of out of my realm of experience.

But it is that part of their relationship that I'm relating myself to -- the strictly platonic sibling relationship that revolves around caring for each other, and banter, and watching each other's backs and being friends.

Not the part where I can picture adult Sam and Dean (in other words, the men we meet in the Pilot) having a romantic/sexual relationship.

Which brings me back to my main point: Why do I ship Sam/Dean Wincest? (Note: NOT Wincest involving John, ew.)

1. Not Normal
First of all, we cannot look at these boys as regular siblings. We just can't. We have been given examples time and again that allude to the fact that Dean was more than simply a sibling to Sam. Dean was a caretaker. John needed him to step up to the plate and act as the second (or sometimes only, depending on the sitch and who you're talking to -- haha, Cookie!) parent. Right off the bat, this set the tone for the relationship they had as children. Combine this with their on-the-road lifestyle in which they were each other's only constants?

Sam relied very heavily on Dean. Dean was his big brother, his mother, his father, and his only friend. He relied on him to keep him fed, protected, entertained, and informed.
Dean relied very heavily on Sam for different reasons. Taking care of Sam made him feel more secure in the knowledge of Sam's well-being, made him feel more secure is his role within the family, and was his way of being useful to John. John praised him based on his performance of his 'one job' -- looking out for Sam. On top of that, Sam was also Dean's only constant and friend.
Together, both boys had each other. That was not 'it', since they also had John, Bobby, Pastor Jim, Caleb, etc. But for the most part? Their relationship was the primary relationship for both of them. They didn't have other concrete relationships with children outside of each other and they spent more time with each other than with anyone else in the world. They were each other's everything, essentially.

But that does not a Wincest relationship make. So let's move on to when they got older.

2. The Boys All Grown Up
Dean took his role in his family very seriously. Family is very very VERY important to Dean. In fact, I might go so far as to say it is the Single Most Important Thing to Dean. This likely stems from losing his beloved mother at such a young age and the fear of loss which that trauma instilled in him, and also the dependence upon his relationships with his brother and father as his ONLY constant relationships which was cultivated within him from age four. Ever since John put Sammy in Dean's arms and entrusted him with the baby's life? Dean felt responsible for Sam. We also know that Dean was often the one to comfort his father after a fight and to take care of Sam for him. Once Sam got old enough (I might even say the Christmas he was eight), he began to argue with John. Dean became the glue that held the family together and the barrier that kept Sam and John from tearing each other apart. He was the link, and he was a damn strong link. For another comparison, think of Dean as a rubber band stretched between them.

When Sam left, though he did not leave Dean, he DID leave Dean. And the rubber band snapped. There was nothing pulling on the other side anymore because Sam had essentially made it clear to Dean that he no longer needed him and took off with the implicit promise that he would not be returning. Dean was left without Sam's companionship and without his baby brother to be responsible for.

It is likely that at this point, angry and hurt, Dean would have turned to John for comfort. And as we learn in the Pilot, it is during the period between Sam's departure and his return that John also cuts ties with Dean and sends him alone on hunts. Thus, Dean was also left without his father's presence and literally had nobody to take care of or feel responsible for and nobody for companionship.

Dean depended very much on his family for his definition of who he was, and he had pretty much lost it all. Already a pretty fucked-up person emotionally, you can see how this would have affected him.

3. The Boys Looking for Love Outside of Each Other
Dean then found Cassie. Here's where it gets a little sticky. Cassie does not resemble Sam in any way -- physically. She is female, petite, and of mixed black and white parentage. In fact, she's almost the opposite of Sam. But personality wise? She's very assertive, she's very intelligent, and when Dean met her, she was a college student trying to pave her own path in a world where that was against the grain. Sound a little familiar? She, like Sam, doesn't really take shit from Dean, and can put him in his place. He respects her opinions and seeks affection from her. But she rejects him when she finds out who he really is.

Sam, at the same time, meets Jess. Jess is NOT the exact opposite of Dean. She is tall, blonde, with light eyes and moles (which aren't freckles, but still). She is not his double, but the colouring and the stature are fairly similar. Jess is also a caretaker. She reassures him, worries about him, makes food for him, and stands at his side without question. She also tries to get him out to have more fun. Sound familiar? The way in which she is different from Dean is that she is much more gentle and her confidence is shakier than Dean's, even though hers is far more genuine than Dean's is. And Sam? Never tells Jess the truth about who he is because he's afraid that she'd do what Cassie did do to Dean -- leave him.

Both boys understand that there are very few people in their lives who will ever truly know them and accept them for who they are. And guess what? The person who knows them best and still loves and accepts them is each other. Sure, John. But that's a whole different relationship and he doesn't seem nearly as close to his boys as they are to each other.

Anyway. So Sam is the one person that has always provided all these things that Dean NEEDS. And Dean has always done his best to be everything Sam could possibly need before he even really realises that he needs it. We even know that Dean doesn't like having 'chick flick' moments, but Dean INSTIGATES them when he's worried about Sam's nightmares about Jess and his visions, and even about the topic of them being a family again. More than anything, Dean NEEDS his family. It defines him. And once John died, and Sam had gotten the rude wake-up call that even girls who did know and accept him would never be able to be with him, Sam and Dean ended up alone together. They were all that was left and all they had was each other to lean on in their grief and in their lifestyle.

Now. Add two things: love and sex.

4. Love!
Love: Dean loved Sam so goddamn much that he literally could NOT bear to live without him. He loved him so goddamn much that he SOLD HIS SOUL to bring him back just so he could have one last year with him and die knowing he was alive and safe.
Sam loves Dean so goddamn much that upon realising what his big brother had done, he flips out and sets out to find a way to break that deal. He has become steadily more stressed out and frazzled. Then there was Mystery Spot where we saw his reactions to Dean dying, his desperation, and finally, what he turned into without his brother, before he ended up literally begging and crying for the Trickster to return his brother to him.

They love each other a WHOLE DAMN LOT. It's pretty scary, actually. As the Trickster said, it's actually sort of unhealthy, really.

Now add sex to the bargain.

5. Sex
Dean and Sam are weirdly obsessed with each other's sex lives.

Dean has been concerned with Sam's ability to get laid since the beginning. He's tried hooking him up with specific girls (See: Hookman, Shadow, Provenance, Playthings, Heart for examples), often takes him out to bars to 'have fun', and comments repeatedly about the hotness of different women around them and how Sam should get laid. He also likes to flaunt his own sex life in front of Sam, parading women and phone numbers in front of Sam in an extremely suggestive manner. He often makes sure Sam knows that he is about to or has had sex with someone, and likes to tell him all about it afterward.

Sam, on the other hand, watches Dean's sex life. He doesn't REALLY have one of his own because he seems to subscribe to the philosophy that sex = love or at least sex = feelings. He can't make himself go out and pick up girls in bars. That's not him. And he doesn't seem to need the constant sex like his very tactile brother. Instead, he allows Dean to parade his sex life in front of him and tends to even be supportive of it. In fact, even when he seems to be accusing Dean of being shallow when it comes to sex, he's pretty much fishing for information. And okay, he can complain all he wants about seeing Dean's naked ass, but he a) WENT INTO THE ROOM IN WHICH HE KNEW HIS BROTHER WAS HAVING SEX in the first place and b) HE LINGERED long enough to say 'oh god' before he bothered ducking out of the room again. Not to mention he was sitting in the car, parked out the window through which you could see the shadow of his brother having sex, HELLO.

The point is, they're very concerned with each other as sexual beings, for some reason. I dunno about you guys, but my brother and I don't talk about our sexcapades. Or...wouldn't if we really had them. Relationships or dates? Sure. Sexual adventures? Not. So. Much. TMI, dudes.

6. UST, baby!
But then there's the fact that these boys? Have issues with The Touching. They've got all this emotional tension between them and they're all ixnay on the ouchingtay. Sure, they'll grab each other when they're saving one another or they'll grab a shoulder to get one another's attention before letting go, or they're brush against each other when walking or when they're passing by each other, but they're small touches. They never really hug or just wrap a comforting arm around each other or anything. And when they do, fandom goes OMFG! Why? Because it's SO RARE and it's like a catharsis for fandom, as well! All this tension builds and builds and builds and suddenly they're clinging to each other and touching hair and staring and expressing feelings and everything sort of just explodes rather than defusing. And I'm sorry, but when Sam pulled back from Dean in Mystery Spot and they both just stood really close and stared at each other and wouldn't stop touching? I seriously thought that that intensity was going to end up in a kiss. Well, okay. I thought it should have led to that, but knew it wouldn't considering the show.

Now. I don't know about you guys, but this is reminiscent of my male friends who try not to touch in anything but "manly" ways so they can't have their actions misconstrued as anything but heterosexual. The families I know don't have touching problems. My brother and I hug all the time. If we're tired in a car, the other one becomes a pillow. If we're trying to bug each other, it's either poking with feet or hitting a ticklish rib with a fingertip or tugging hair or whatever. Girls who are friends tend to be sort of the same way, but without the constant needling. They hug, they can lie on each other, they have no problem being squeezed in small spaces together, etc. Touching isn't a big deal because it expresses love, but not lust. Which is why heterosexual men are crazy and repressed and need therapy, dude. But that's a whole different matter.

Point is, the fact that Sam and Dean love each other more than anything else in the world, are pretty much the main things either one has got, have a weird interest with each other as sexual beings, can't touch each other for some reason, and have a pretty fucked up childhood? They all sort of set the stage for my ability to believe that Wincest could happen.

7. Why All the Gay Jokes, Writers?
There is a REASON that the writers put all the gay jokes in the show. Sure, it's sort of to poke fun at the Wincest fans while also throwing them a bone. But it's also because it MAKES SENSE. When they walked into the hotel in Playthings, they were obviously together, obviously comfortable, knew each other well, and weren't acting like buddies on a roadtrip. Add the request for one room without the qualification of 'two beds'...to her, they seemed too comfortable with each other to be buddies, and why would adult brothers be traveling together? They must be a gay couple.

Sam with Michael in season one. For some reason, Sam felt the need to wait outside leaning against the Impala rather than going inside with Dean to ask for a room. Then, when Dean asked for two queens, he for some reason, looked back out at Sam, as if to draw the kids attention to the fact that he was with another guy and thus would obviously need two beds. It just seemed very forced, which would explain why the kid went "yeah, I'll bet" and implied that he thought Dean was covering up that he was gay and there with his boyfriend.

Dean asked in Playthings "Why do these people assume we're gay?" and Sam replied "Well, you are kinda butch. Probably think you're overcompensating." And it's true -- but he tends to overcompensate more when he's with Sam and having to ask for a room, for some reason. o.O

Then in AVSC, Dean randomly slipped into the role of gay couple TWICE with two different people and didn't even say anything. And he was a little over the top, but the fact that he did it and was so comfortable with it and that Sam didn't actually complain was a little random. It's not like they discussed it and planned it beforehand, they just flowed into it.

8. Living In Their Own Little Winchester Brother Bubble
That's another thing that tips people off that something's different. They flow around and with each other. All their movements are choreographed from years of living in each other's pockets and they know everything there is to know about each other. Dean was surprised when Sam ordered his breakfast for him in the diner in MS, but he got over it and grinned, saying "I get all tingly when you take control like that" which, HELLO, was a gay joke about them between them with no audience, and which showed just how unsurprising Dean would actually find it if Sam did know exactly what he wanted and ordered for him. I mean, they do it with each other's coffee and stuff all the time.

They literally live in their own little world together where nobody else is allowed or at least nobody else will ever REALLY fit it. You can see that with Gordon and Jo. Dean was taking a liking to Gordon, but as soon as Gordon played the 'Sammy' card and Sam expressed dislike, Dean wavered in his convictions about the man. Gordon threatened Sam, and it was OVER. With Jo, she tried really hard to make them a trio and to get into Dean's pants. He was so unused to having other hunters around, let alone female ones, that he tried to slot her in the best he could -- by treating her like a little sister and putting up a wall of overprotectiveness and wise advice from an elder. They cannot and will not really let other people in. They are two of a kind and nobody else will ever fit. THAT is why Kripke refuses to bring love interests onto the show. They would not be them if there was a third and there could never be a third because they ARE them and a third would never fit.

All of these things mashed together, as I said, provides a basis for Wincest fic.

Let me emphasise that it provides a BASIS. That basis does not need to be used to create a Wincest fic. You can leave it at two brothers who are really fucked up, way too attached to each other, and need MAJOR therapy. Or, you can take it further.

9. Wincest in Fic: How Do I See It Happening (Plausibly)?
Personally, I am a big believer in the inciting incident. Usually, this happens in fics where one or the other Winchester brother has something happen to them or to his brother that makes him realise or makes him develop feelings for his brother beyond platonic love. Many fics use some sort of curse, an illness, whatever. Something that would cause a spike in worry or a shift in their dynamic such that it leaves them spinning and changes/slots something fundamental into place.

The ONLY way I can imagine one of the brothers having had feelings for the other that were REALISED before the show, is if it was Dean. I can imagine Dean developing feelings for Sam before he left for school and carrying them for years because of the many examples we have of the fact that Sam pretty much controls all of Dean's emotional strings and when it comes to Sam, Dean is not only very emotionally vulnerable and somewhat needy, he also feels responsible for him and is pretty easily hurt by him. The rejection he feels from Sam is very obvious in episodes like the Pilot, Asylum, Scarecrow, Shadow, etc. Sam has enormous emotional power over Dean.

Sam, on the other hand, starts off the show able to be weedled into something for his brother but his cooperation comes with conditions, he doesn't want to stay with him, and he has a lot of bottled-up resentment and a lot of oft-expressed desire to get away. Dean clings, and Sam hardly even notices or just indulges it while continuing to plan on leaving.

That dynamic changes, obviously, in the second season and again in the third. Dean's emotions continue to be very wrapped up in Sam's thrall, but Sam's slowly fall under Dean's. In IMToD, Sam says that they were finally starting to become brothers again. In other words, he was finally starting to feel like he could fit with Dean again and could have that relationship and that comfort with his brother again. Dean would never have said that. From the Pilot, he believed that they'd never not had that. Or at least, he thought the reason they didn't was that Sam had shoved him on a shelf and left him to sit while all Dean wanted was for a return to that relationship they'd had before.

The look on Dean's face when Sam holds a gun to it and Dean asks 'You hate me that much?' is just heartbreaking and says a thousand words. It was clearly killing Dean to realise that his brother could harbour enough resentment and dislike towards him that the ghost could make him do that, while his only resentment of Sam was that he didn't care about him enough to stay and that he just keeps leaving.

The thing about Dean, though, is that he is used to doing two things in his life: a) taking care of and protecting Sammy from anything and everything that could possibly harm him in any way and b) not getting what he wants and needs. Dean, if he had realised feelings of a romantic nature for Sam, would see himself and those feelings as having the potential to harm Sam. He would also be terrified that if Sam found out, Sam would be disgusted with him and leave. Thus, even if Dean did have feelings for Sam, he would repress them like a really repressed thing. You would see hints of it in ways that he could prevent (such as the subconscious touching and the constant worry/interest/staring, etc) but he would never deliberately share those feelings with Sam. If you recall, Dean was NOT happy with the idea of Sam traipsing around inside his head in DaLDoM. And, speaking of that episode, demon!Dean made it quite clear that all Dean has is Sam, and Dean himself made it quite clear that this is true and desperately screamed that he was ALWAYS there for Sam. Even when Sam left (all three times) and even when he resented him and held a gun to his face and screamed at him and didn't let him IN and didn't seem to care for Dean like Dean cared for him, Dean was always there for him and never ever stopped loving him. That is who Dean is. He "sacrifices everything" for Sam. Sam knows this, Dean knows this, we know this. EVERYONE knows this. For Dean, Sam = #1. And I'm not sure exactly where he ranks himself, but it's pretty low. Thus, he puts Sam ahead of his own feelings, which would make sense as to why he would deny himself what he actually wanted if he thought it would negatively affect Sam.

Sam would not have had those feelings for Dean before the show started. Or at least wouldn't have realised them. He had too much bottled up resentment and took too long to get to the point of caring about Dean in the same way as Dean cared about him to have been harbouring strong romantic feelings for him. I can see him developing them over the course of time up to the third season when he's so desperate about Dean and terrified and devastated about losing him. But pre-show? I'm not seeing it.

10. The Cherry
...on the CAKE, you guys!
I would say that the one last thing that really puts the cherry on the cake for the Wincest vibes, though, is the chemistry between them. Jared and Jensen bring something to the screen that most TV-sibling relationships don't have: they genuinely love each other. I'm not tinhat enough to REALLY think they're Totes In Lurve (although that's a whole other post for this section) but they do care a lot about each other. Jensen has even gone on record as saying that Jared is practically his brother. They're best friends, they spend almost as much time together as Sam and Dean do, and they are 'like brothers'. All this and the way they interact (which is actually the exact opposite of how most of those heterosexual male friendships I mentioned above) adds up for a very powerful relationship on screen with real emotions that are mixed into the characters to give them life.

11. A Good Wincest Fic has...
So okay. I've pointed out the many reasons why I can see Wincest happening. I've pointed out some ways in which I can see it actually happening. Let's talk about the characteristics I believe belong in a good Wincest fic.

Unless it is a fic that works on the premise of an already established relationship, wherein they've already gone through all the hard stuff and have gotten past it to settle in a comfortable domestic relationship, Wincest fic needs a LOT OF ANGST.

Taking into account all the stuff I mentioned above, you've already gone a shitload of angst. Add to it romantic feelings for your brother? GUILT. ANGST. CONFUSION. HEARTACHE. The feeling of being WRONG. And DIRTY. It's not accepted. It's not 'right' in most cultures. And I somehow doubt that John brought his boys up to have relationships with family members.

But that's another element it needs: the recognition that these are the Winchesters. They are not normal. They do not follow the law. Their lifestyle is beyond the boundaries of 'normal' human existence. In a sense, they are sort of like the last people on earth in that they're the only two like them on earth. So "it's against the law" and "it's wrong" do not apply to them as they apply to 'normal' people. This is one of the reasons that Wincest can be read and written by people who do not condone/participate in incestuous relationships in real life; in this fictional world, these guys are not 'normal' and so they cannot be categorised and regular rules and taboos do not apply to them.

I also like my Wincest to at least START OUT unrequited. Especially if it's on the Dean side of things. Not only does Dean angst prettily, he does it quietly and it would make sense that he'd sit back and try to make Sam happy even if it made him unhappy. Plus, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense for both brothers to have been So In Lurve for a decade or something and just never notice until they come together in a loving embrace. If you read any of the fics in my Wincest tag on del.icio.us, you'll find that many of them have Dean suffering from unrequited love for Sam. This tends to be the kind of Wincest I read. It needs to be angsty. It can't just be happy. That would make no sense! Especially when Sam is Mr Safe Happy Normal. Incest, as I've already established, doesn't really fit into that definition.

If it's 3rd season and on, I'm more open to Sam also having Wincesty feelings because I find that Sam has developed emotionally in a direction where he is less Mr SHN and more willing to lead the hunting life and more attached to Dean than before.

12. The Million Dollar Question: How do these boys do the nasty?
And as far as sexual? I think Dean, for reasons already provided, would be the less aggressive one going into it because of all his doubt and feelings of responsibility and guilt. Not to mention, he'd probably be shocked that he got something he wanted. Sam tends to decide what he wants and just take it.

And when it comes to the act of sex? Dean bottoms. I mean, sure, they switch off sometimes, but really? Dean bottoms. We've seen that Dean tends to give to Sam and let Sam take of him whenever he wants. He literally throws himself in the line of fire for Sam, uses his body to shield him. He's also been shown as a less dominant partner in bed, anyway. In R666, Cassie kisses him, undresses him, tosses him onto a bed, climbs on top, gets things started, and only then does Dean turn her over. That doesn't last long, though, and he sits up so she's sitting on his lap and in a position of control again. Sam, though? Sam takes. He's always taking from Dean and in his own sex scene in Heart, we see him grab a girl, kiss her, slam her against a wall, undress her, throw her on a bed, toss her around, bite at her... she never actually takes the position of control. He's very aggressive.

I know these things do not necessarily a bottom make, but I think in Dean's case, he's just a bottom. He just is. Like I said, they switch up, but really, that's where he likes to be. Letting Sam take control and do what he wants. And Sam likes being in control. I think Dean is also more open sexually than Sam is in some respects, and can imagine that he has experimented with men before. Sam seems to be the fall-in-love-with-a-girl-and-have-sex type whereas Dean bed-hops. We're not entirely sure how much, but... Plus, Jensen pointed out that he figures Dean wrangles up some of their money in the sex trade. I personally think he'd have had more male customers than female if that was the case. So I think Dean would just be more open to it and more comfortable with it and enjoy it more. And for all the others reasons on top of these, Dean = bottom. Very Happy

13. In conclusion!
Um. I'm not even sure if I'm coherent anymore at this point. But that's my two cents on the matter. I was inspired to write this because of the recent Fandom Wank concerning Wincest and slash in the Supernatural fandom. I might write my thoughts on J2 (and their thoughts on Wincest) later on. Maybe. If I have time. But I needed to get this out and explain why I think Wincest works.

Jule · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject:

You know, I really wanted to read this, but then you pointed out in the first paragraph that it was going to be a looong post, so I made the horrible mistake to scroll down to see how long it actually is, and my eyes fell on that distracting blue link to Fandom Wank.

And I clicked (it's like an addiction, I must click on links).

And read the wank, which was very entertaining btw. Laughing

And then I got carried away and created a JournalFen account, just because I could (they seem to have one of those open registration periods today).

Long story short: I did not read this, and now I don't have time to read it. Grrr. Must come back tomorrow.

Sarah · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject:

*amused* Just so long as you come back! And yes, the wank was pretty funny. F_W is so addictive.

Sarah · Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject:

Will you girls read it now? I've put in SUBTITLES! *tempts*

Jule · Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 10:55 am Post subject:

Hey, I finally managed to read your masterpiece. (Curious question: How many hours did it take you to write it down?) Very interesting points. Are you planning to post it somewhere else, like spn_heavymeta?

While reading it I realized that I'm a different kind of Wincest (= Sam/Dean only, no John) fan/shipper than you are. I'm absolutely fine with it in fanfic (though there are some fics in which it really bothers me. For example, recently I read a rape aftermath fic and I was repeatedly thrown out of the story by them trying to get it on while at the same time dealing with the heavy fallout), and I love Wincest PWPs, but I can't see it in canon. I just can't. I have to put on my slash goggles and squint real hard to catch any slashy subtext while watching the episodes (unless it's very obvious, like in Mystery Spot). No matter how not normal their upbringing was or their lifestyle is, I can't buy a canonical wincestuous relationship. But if they would do the nasty, I think they would do it the way you pointed out in #12.

And hooker!Dean, ha, I've been suspecting that myself. I was never entirely convinced that he was hustling pool in the bar in Bugs. He definitely wouldn't have any trouble finding customers. I bet all those truckers in the bars they hang out in would be more than willing to pay for a piece of him. Uh, I think I'll go now and read the hooker!Dean/trick!Sam fic again I found last week. Here is the link in case you are interested.

Sarah · Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject:

Jule · Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: