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Verudellita · Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:42 am Post subject:

Very well said. Well my grandpa used to be in army too. He was a capitain but I dunno who or what. Rolling Eyes

But they made him leave because he was a rebel. Very Happy

So our family is very kind and open in the relationships with children and me and my sister and other family children are friends with the elders from very early age and our parents were like this too. So I really cannot imagine to live like this, calling my daddy sir and so on. It was really breaking my heart seeing how John treated his guys. So not understandable for me.
I am 18 now and I had to build my relationship with my parents very hard and the path was not easy many times and I thought I had really big problems sometimes. But since I know SN I have to say I have the best parents over the world who made for me very much and even now when I am grown up I pretty understand how much they mean to me.
My point is that having my father like John I would never like and appreciate him as I do now my father. I mean many men lost their wives but who treated his children like this? It is insane and I pretty understand why Sam left and I am really sorry for him when his life turned like this.
Hey, I hate orders and having everything prefect so I would leave imediately. I went out with a boy whose dad was a soldier and I could not even handle that boy... the way how his room looked like, well I am a messy person and he was getting mad from me all the time and I could not stand his habits. So I would never live with a soldier. Confused

And if you have a close look at Dean he really acts like father sometimes and I am afraid in real life he would be the same after some time. Sad

But it is still just my opinion. Smile

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Duchess · Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:06 am Post subject:

Verudellita · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:27 am Post subject:

I see. Well I have just a younger sister. Five years between us. And I have to say I am full Dean package. I love my family, I would do anything for them especially for my little damned sister who does not pretty deserves it. Twisted Evil

Yes, I have problems having a relationship because I hate the feeling I cannot be here for my family 24 hours 7 days a week. But I flirt, I do it, I know about it and I cannot stop it. It is like a defense, keeping distances, you know? I pretty understand Dean.
So this moves me to another point, it is not only about millitary family, it is also about being taught to love and care your family that much.
But I do not wanna be that serious, so I made a test who are you? And I got 100% Dean. Laughing

That time I was pretty surprised. Rolling Eyes

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Duchess · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject:

ExtraCookie · NO CHICKFLICK MOMENTS Joined: 04 Apr 2007 Posts: 269

OK, I know I probably won't change your minds and I accept that! But I just have to defend John; of course! Laughing

Yeah, some of the ways he raised his kids weren't great and turned out to be mistakes. But let's think about this just a tad! The whole militant, "yes sir!" attitude did NOT come from John being a jerk who liked to throw his weight around! Is that what he seemed like in the pre-dead-Mary glimpse we got of him in the pilot?! NO! He was warm, sweet and and loving with Dean and made him giggle! It's like you said, John was seriously damaged by Mary's death. In his own words, after that, all he saw was evil (that's a pretty obvious sign that his head wasn't on quite straight; and can you blame him? Most people would've gone totally nuts or become even worse alcoholics [like Max's dad]! He knew a few things at this point: the world was filled with evil dangers he never dreamed were possible; they could get to people, including small children, very easily; and he was going to make damned sure nothing got to HIS kids! So, he went on the major defensive. His thinking: What can I do? I have to protect my boys and none of their other family members would believe me about all this supernatural crap; nor are any of them equipped to protect them like I can; and besides, they're MY sons, I love 'em and we shouldn't be apart! So they have to stay with me. I have to protect them at all costs. How? What do I know? Fall back on my military training, for one thing. Gather all the knowledge about the supernatural for another. And pass along all the strength & knowledge I can to my boys so they can watch out for themselves. Because, obviously, I'm just one man, I can't be with both of them 24/7 and there'll come a day when they're adults and will need to know this stuff when they're on their own. When kids are in danger, there isn't always time to coddle them and explain every little thing and baby them. (Think a toddler reaching for a cup of scalding coffee.) He (felt he) had to enforce discipline to make sure they paid attention to his teachings and followed his orders in order to make sure they did what needed to be done to keep themselves safe! And John's orders, obviously, did keep them safe for many a year! He was smart and tough and knew what he was doing. They were right to follow those orders! Are drill sergeants gruff with soldiers just because they're assholes who like pushing people around? Generally, NO. They do what they do to teach soldiers discipline, which can and does save their own asses eventually. That "yes sir" attitude is also a way to enhance unity. John needed the 3 of them to be a smoothly-functioning unit and units need a leader. That way, there's order rather than chaos and that saves lives.

Yes, along the way, his obssession to keep them safe and avenge his wife's death caused him to, perhaps, overlook some other important aspects of fathering. (Like not being around enough. Although we fans tend to go on and on about him not being there, but we don't actually know how much he left them! There were, for a fact, times. But we don't know how many. People act like they have it on authority that he left them alone or with others *most* of the time! I bet he was with them most of the time.) And he probably forgot to take notice when they were becoming men and adjust his handling of them accordingly. But I do believe he never had bad intentions. On the contrary, he was so focussed on a couple of particular good ones, he couldn't see the other fatherly areas that needed tending to. And they love him enough (esp. Dean; come on, you can tell that Dean and John were not just father and son, but best friends. Which makes so much sense, because he and Sammy are best friends as well. And John and Sam were a lot alike! If you people disapprove of John so much, why not feel similar toward Sammy? He's got John's stubborness, determination and temper, that's for sure! Ha, Dean's so mellow; must've got that from Mary.) that that tells me that he wasn't ALL drill sergeant. I bet if Kripke were asked and he was willing to answer, he'd tell us that the boys DID have *some* good times with John! (And, hell, he DIED for his sons! Isn't that the ultimate?! People bitch and moan on and on about the burden that placed on poor Dean but at least poor Dean, thanks to John, was ALIVE to have or not have burdens! I hate how that gets overlooked! Instead of, "Oh, what an amazing father! He gave his life for his sons!" It's, "What a jerk! He made Dean feel bad cuz he DIED & went to HELL for him!" Sheesh, you people are hard to please! Laughing

) But, for the purpose of setting things up and moving the show along, they've managed to focus on mostly John's flaws rather than strong points.

TRUE: John messed up some. FALSE: He was a jerk/asshole. Let's see you watch the love of your life and parent of your child die, stuck to the ceiling, ripped open and on fire and try to be a parent, loving and protecting your kids as best you can while trying not to go crazy or turn into a full-blown, hopeless alcoholic!

And as to John's friends, I don't recall ALL of them mentioning they butted heads! It was just a couple, wasn't it? And all people who knew him respected him! Probably any falling out had to do with his obsession and intensity, which all stemmed from the love of his family! Good Lord, where is your compassion and understanding?

Sorry that got long! I could go on more, but I have even longer posts around here somewhere about this, so I'll be merciful and stop now! Don't worry, I respect your opinions, though! I just disagree big time!

Like I said in another post, human beings as wonderful as Sam and Dean don't generally happen with terrible parenting. Sometimes, sure, but most of the time, a lot of it is due to good parenting. John must surely have done a lot of things right. We just see the boys' pain so much we tend to forget that. And haven't you ever noticed how John looked at his boys, 99% of the time?! Always this deep look of love and admiration. His eyes DRIPPED that.
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"Decapitations aren't my idea of a good time, I guess." --Sammy, "Bloodlust"

Sarah · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: But. . . but!!!

ExtraCookie · NO CHICKFLICK MOMENTS Joined: 04 Apr 2007 Posts: 269

OK, OK, but you know what I meant! Laughing

Let me borrow your term, then, and rephrase that to "RADIATED that." (You know, those Winchester "eyeball rays of love" [or however you say it! Laughing

] had to come from somewhere!)

Hope you have (or probably "had," by the time you're reading this) lots of fun at the convention!

P.S. Loved the parting laughter; are you secretly Beavis?! Wink

Huh huh huh. That was cool!

Heh heh m heh--yeah! God, you probably don't even know who Beavis & Butt-Head are! Did you say you're 19? So you were, like, 2 when that show came out?! Lol! Awww! Hee hee.

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"Decapitations aren't my idea of a good time, I guess." --Sammy, "Bloodlust"