[Sarah]

LADIES!

I'd like to take this moment to say...
Chyah! We were so totally riiiight! *happy dance*

Now on to the actual theme of the thread: Dean needs a major hug. Sam needs to step up his game a little. Although! That heart-felt "You're my big brother, I'd do anything for you, I love you more than all the money in the world..." speech was a Really Good Start. Thumbs up to Sammy!

...okay, so he didn't actually SAY he loved him, but we've already agreed that Sam and Dean both have eyes that radiate Love Vibes. Therefore his EYES were saying it, and it didn't even need to be said to be heard. The end.

Anyway. We had FIVE confirmations of Dean's lack of self esteem in the finale. The first, of course, was Dean himself. When he was talking to Sam's dead body (and omg, how cute was it to hear him reminiscing about wee!Sam?), he essentially said that his whole purpose in life was to take care of Sam and that'd he'd failed. He later went on to scream "WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO?", then sold his soul for a year of life with a live and well Sam. He nearly said something to Sam at the end "What would I have..." and never argued with either Bobby, RED or YED when they accused him of being insecure and self-destructive.
Of course, those are three of the other instances. Bobby actually asked him if he was that screwed up in the head, and all Dean did was stare at him, which Bobby (and everyone else, I'm sure), took as a very definite "YES!" Then there was RED who was all "You're like a puppy, too much fun to play with." She once again talked about how fun it was to watch him destroy himself from the inside out, just like in Crossroad Blues. And then there was YED who declared that he was pleased he'd kept Dean alive long enough that his self-sacrificing attitude brought Sam back for him.

The last confirmation was Sam (who knows Dean so well and saw right through him and ONCE AGAIN knew EXACTLY what to say to make him feel better! <3333 ack, the love.) in the last scene where he told Dean off for being so stupid and told him that he'd do anything for him, and that he'd get him out of the deal. Dean's face just...it lit up, you know? Oh Sam. Am so glad you are so sensitive and in touch with your feelings. If you were like Dean, you'd both just be emo all the time, and probably dead by now. Or going to Fall Out Boy concerts. Don't know what's worse.
(Sorry if there's FOB fans here. Not my fault you're buckets of crazy. )

[ExtraCookie]

Well, I volunteer to give Dean his hug! And, um, you know, some other stuff, if he wants; I do what I can, I'm a giver!

Uh, anyway, yeah! Poor Dean! He's not ALL low self-esteem. He's definitely confident in some ways. He knows he's cool. And he really is. That stuff isn't just made up for facade/defense purposes. But he does use it as a shield. Thing is, he's really such a wonderful person that he can't even see he's wonderful (past his coolness, which is rather superficial, I guess), if that makes sense! I am curious as to why he's so hard on himself, sees himself as such a screw-up (I mean, wow, did we ever get a glimpse of just how much of one he sees himself as in the djinn ep.! Sheesh!). Maybe it's just that seeing the suffering of his dad and brother all those years after The Incident made him feel inadequate for not being able to fix everything for them, which I'm sure he wanted to more than anything. I mean, I guess his train of thought was basically, "Dad's a wreck because he lost the love of his life in a freaky, hideous manner and Sammy's just a baby/little kid, so it's up to me to hold things together and fix whatever I can." He seems to have focused almost soley on their pain & problems and just swept his own under the rug of his coolness. Knowing Sammy, he must've tried to be there for him, but, esp. in all the years he was a kid, he wasn't able to keep from being pushed away by Dean. (Heh heh, he's all grown up [literally! Damn!] now and can pound through those defenses, as we've seen.)

I hesitate to say this, in the face of all the John haters/dislikers, but, perhaps, also, John put so much pressure on him to protect Sammy that every time any little misshap occured involving Sammy, Dean felt like a failure (BUT, let me stress, I truly don't think in a million years John realized that was happening or meant for it to! John was lost, disconnected to a degree, hurting and had limited others he could trust either of his son's care to, so having Dean be Sammy's caretaker was all he knew to do! John was NOT intentionally a bad dad, people! NO!)

Anyway, now that Sammy's being more and more aggressive about breaking through Dean's defenses, AND after all this stuff that just went down in the finale, perhaps Dean just might finally start to realize that, rather than a screw-up, he's actually a pretty terrific guy. But maybe not or, at least, not completely, cuz we fans are eating this self-loathing stuff up, aren't we? (But I, personally, would be fine with Dean getting some self-esteem.)

[Squeemister]

I agree with the fact Dean thinks that most everything is his responsibility, his fault, his job because we saw a glimpse of it in Something Wicked. When he left Sam to go out, the look his father gave him, the whole job of finishing off the Shtriga (Sp?) because he "screwed up" but he was just a kid, but still he didn't see it as an excuse.
He definately sees everything as his job and responsibility.
In the Finale he said "He let down everyone he loved" when he really didn't. He saw it his fault his father chose to make a deal, his fault Sam was taken from the dinner, his fault Jake Stabbed Sam...all these things he couldn't control but he saw them as something he should've been able to.
He's definatly a broken soul and SOOO human. All of Dean's thoughts and his rationality process comes from that one moment when his life changed. He no longer was able to be just a kid, he had to become an adult and react like an adult at a too young of an age. In the finale, he said he wanted Sam to just be a kid for a bit longer. That perhaps saved Sam from this gult and this feeling of no self worth because Sam didn't have to be an adult, Dean was.
Dean had always done what his father said, like a soldier. Continously obeying without any question. If something ever went wrong, he'd most likely think it was his fault because he still has that "Kid" mentality, he never really got to grow out of that stage like when someone yells, sure it might not be the kid's fault, but why is mommy angry when I'm standing here? Kinda like that. Dean has had such a responsibility, the weight of the world on him since he was 4.
I've heard some people go "Why did he make the deal after he knows how it feels?" Dean was not thinking rationally, all he was thinking about was his job, his responsibility of Keeping Sam Safe. Even when Sam was dead, he still felt more than ever that he needed to keep him safe. Sam wasn't where he could, so he did the first thing that came to mind, something he knew would work. I saw it as, "Sam doesn't have a lot of time...I don't have a lot of time to save him...I need to find a way to save him." He kept running that over and over in his head. He wouldn't let Bobby bury him which is another note of that he couldn't let go, that he thought he still had that job.
After the YED was killed, after HE killed the YED, he knew Sam was finally safe and you could see how relieved he felt. He had finally not "Screwed up". All Dean has is Sam and I think Dean lives a bit through him because Sam does have a sense of self worth. Sam doesn't allow himself to keep guilt or keep something like that inside and dwell on it so hard. Dean does. He continously takes that and adds it to the pile and he doesn't let go of it. He doesn't allow himself to forget about it because he sees that as a good and deserving punishment.


*looks at post* Sorry..its long.

[Squeemister]

Oh and I forgot to add somewhere in there that when Sam found out about the Deal and Dean said "Don't be mad at me.." That seriously just showed how much Dean wanted and needed to bring Sam back and how much Sam meant to him because Sam never judged Dean or yelled at him because he made a "mistake"...etc...blah...*runs out of thread*

[Sarah]

[ExtraCookie]

"*looks at post* Sorry..its long."

Oh, isn't that cute? Apologizing for a long post in this place?! S.M., I, for one, like other people's long posts (it helps balance out MY long posts!) So, feel free to type on and on!!! And, to your long post, my answer is pretty simple; it's in the subject line! I agree with everything you said. That was some good child psychology there! I see you really noticed how quickly Sammy tempered his initial shocked anger when Dean told him not to be mad as well. Sammy instantly realized how much pain Dean was in and the fact that he simply couldn't have *not* done what he did, and what a statement of love and devotion it was, and the anger just evaporated, replaced with sympathy, love, & determination to save his big brother. (Sorry for the run-on!) I just adored that moment like crazy. The writers are so good at creating moments that are very brief, but have huge impact. They never fail to write in those small, extremely telling moments that highlight both boys' personalities and love for each other. That was just super sweet and true to character. They never go off track with their character.

And thanks, Sarah, for encouraging me not to hesitate. I was just hesitant because I didn't want to see any "See? We told you John sucks!" posts. It seems most fans are John haters/dislikers and, as a result, I've become pretty defensive of him and tend to feel like I'm defending him all by myself. I know you, at least, don't *hate* him, but I'm the only one around here who seems to actually LIKE him (I think he's great)! Look how defensive I am of a fictional character! And you think *you're* obssessed with the show?!

[Squeemister]

*giggles* Well ya know...I could keep going.
I tend to ramble too.

I agree, I love how the writers know their characters so well. They know their mind, their feelings etc. Some series you can't see the character other than a fictional character. With Supernatural you see them as human beings because they react as such, nothing is far off the mark to an actual human. In other series, you can pick apart a character and find mistakes and gaping holes because things don't click together. But with Supernatural, the writers write the characters almost like a biography. You know the character, you know the way he reacts and feels, and you can feel like they are real because of it. Its not a fantasy character, its a true to human nature one.
*facepalms* And all I was going to say was > *giggles* and thanks.
I'm gonna stop before I go into John's mind.

[Sarah]

[ExtraCookie]

"Same goes for Jo. I've warmed up to her. I still dislike her character up to No Exit. But she was likeable and easy to feel bad for in BUABS."

Ya know, even though Jo isn't my fav. character, and I won't be torn up by any means if she's gone, I've always thought that, as long as they keep her away from a romantic situation with Dean (I've mentioned before that I wouldn't think it so bad if she and Sammy got together), she's good to have around. I just think it's cool for the guys to have at least one person in their age range who truly understands what their lives are like, to a large degree. I think she'd be a good sister figure. (I don't mean a biological sister. I've never gotten all the speculation that she's their real sister.) Also, she seems to know the job pretty well (although she's got some learning to do, and what better teachers than the Winchesters? Esp. our ever-so-patient Sammy! Dean would mostly be a tough, John-like teacher I think. Probably better for him to teach by example!), so it'd be nice to have a young, extra able-bodied person to turn to for help whenever needed.

Hey, there is a demon war starting! I'd say the Brothers Winchester need anyone on their side they can get! In any case, I hope she's not killed off. That's just such a typical, way over-used way of getting rid of characters. Not all fans hate her; they should leave the door open. Besides, she seems to be about all Ellen has! Poor Ellen!

P.S. I would've never thought I'd write the words "demon war" without it making me think cheesy, lame thoughts!

[Duchess]

[Duchess]

[Verudellita]

[Duchess]

[Verudellita]

Very well said. Well my grandpa used to be in army too. He was a capitain but I dunno who or what. But they made him leave because he was a rebel. So our family is very kind and open in the relationships with children and me and my sister and other family children are friends with the elders from very early age and our parents were like this too. So I really cannot imagine to live like this, calling my daddy sir and so on. It was really breaking my heart seeing how John treated his guys. So not understandable for me.
I am 18 now and I had to build my relationship with my parents very hard and the path was not easy many times and I thought I had really big problems sometimes. But since I know SN I have to say I have the best parents over the world who made for me very much and even now when I am grown up I pretty understand how much they mean to me.
My point is that having my father like John I would never like and appreciate him as I do now my father. I mean many men lost their wives but who treated his children like this? It is insane and I pretty understand why Sam left and I am really sorry for him when his life turned like this.
Hey, I hate orders and having everything prefect so I would leave imediately. I went out with a boy whose dad was a soldier and I could not even handle that boy... the way how his room looked like, well I am a messy person and he was getting mad from me all the time and I could not stand his habits. So I would never live with a soldier. And if you have a close look at Dean he really acts like father sometimes and I am afraid in real life he would be the same after some time. But it is still just my opinion.

[Duchess]

[Verudellita]

I see. Well I have just a younger sister. Five years between us. And I have to say I am full Dean package. I love my family, I would do anything for them especially for my little damned sister who does not pretty deserves it. Yes, I have problems having a relationship because I hate the feeling I cannot be here for my family 24 hours 7 days a week. But I flirt, I do it, I know about it and I cannot stop it. It is like a defense, keeping distances, you know? I pretty understand Dean.
So this moves me to another point, it is not only about millitary family, it is also about being taught to love and care your family that much.
But I do not wanna be that serious, so I made a test who are you? And I got 100% Dean. That time I was pretty surprised.

[Duchess]

[ExtraCookie]

OK, I know I probably won't change your minds and I accept that! But I just have to defend John; of course!

Yeah, some of the ways he raised his kids weren't great and turned out to be mistakes. But let's think about this just a tad! The whole militant, "yes sir!" attitude did NOT come from John being a jerk who liked to throw his weight around! Is that what he seemed like in the pre-dead-Mary glimpse we got of him in the pilot?! NO! He was warm, sweet and and loving with Dean and made him giggle! It's like you said, John was seriously damaged by Mary's death. In his own words, after that, all he saw was evil (that's a pretty obvious sign that his head wasn't on quite straight; and can you blame him? Most people would've gone totally nuts or become even worse alcoholics [like Max's dad]! He knew a few things at this point: the world was filled with evil dangers he never dreamed were possible; they could get to people, including small children, very easily; and he was going to make damned sure nothing got to HIS kids! So, he went on the major defensive. His thinking: What can I do? I have to protect my boys and none of their other family members would believe me about all this supernatural crap; nor are any of them equipped to protect them like I can; and besides, they're MY sons, I love 'em and we shouldn't be apart! So they have to stay with me. I have to protect them at all costs. How? What do I know? Fall back on my military training, for one thing. Gather all the knowledge about the supernatural for another. And pass along all the strength & knowledge I can to my boys so they can watch out for themselves. Because, obviously, I'm just one man, I can't be with both of them 24/7 and there'll come a day when they're adults and will need to know this stuff when they're on their own. When kids are in danger, there isn't always time to coddle them and explain every little thing and baby them. (Think a toddler reaching for a cup of scalding coffee.) He (felt he) had to enforce discipline to make sure they paid attention to his teachings and followed his orders in order to make sure they did what needed to be done to keep themselves safe! And John's orders, obviously, did keep them safe for many a year! He was smart and tough and knew what he was doing. They were right to follow those orders! Are drill sergeants gruff with soldiers just because they're assholes who like pushing people around? Generally, NO. They do what they do to teach soldiers discipline, which can and does save their own asses eventually. That "yes sir" attitude is also a way to enhance unity. John needed the 3 of them to be a smoothly-functioning unit and units need a leader. That way, there's order rather than chaos and that saves lives.

Yes, along the way, his obssession to keep them safe and avenge his wife's death caused him to, perhaps, overlook some other important aspects of fathering. (Like not being around enough. Although we fans tend to go on and on about him not being there, but we don't actually know how much he left them! There were, for a fact, times. But we don't know how many. People act like they have it on authority that he left them alone or with others *most* of the time! I bet he was with them most of the time.) And he probably forgot to take notice when they were becoming men and adjust his handling of them accordingly. But I do believe he never had bad intentions. On the contrary, he was so focussed on a couple of particular good ones, he couldn't see the other fatherly areas that needed tending to. And they love him enough (esp. Dean; come on, you can tell that Dean and John were not just father and son, but best friends. Which makes so much sense, because he and Sammy are best friends as well. And John and Sam were a lot alike! If you people disapprove of John so much, why not feel similar toward Sammy? He's got John's stubborness, determination and temper, that's for sure! Ha, Dean's so mellow; must've got that from Mary.) that that tells me that he wasn't ALL drill sergeant. I bet if Kripke were asked and he was willing to answer, he'd tell us that the boys DID have *some* good times with John! (And, hell, he DIED for his sons! Isn't that the ultimate?! People bitch and moan on and on about the burden that placed on poor Dean but at least poor Dean, thanks to John, was ALIVE to have or not have burdens! I hate how that gets overlooked! Instead of, "Oh, what an amazing father! He gave his life for his sons!" It's, "What a jerk! He made Dean feel bad cuz he DIED & went to HELL for him!" Sheesh, you people are hard to please! ) But, for the purpose of setting things up and moving the show along, they've managed to focus on mostly John's flaws rather than strong points.

TRUE: John messed up some. FALSE: He was a jerk/asshole. Let's see you watch the love of your life and parent of your child die, stuck to the ceiling, ripped open and on fire and try to be a parent, loving and protecting your kids as best you can while trying not to go crazy or turn into a full-blown, hopeless alcoholic!

And as to John's friends, I don't recall ALL of them mentioning they butted heads! It was just a couple, wasn't it? And all people who knew him respected him! Probably any falling out had to do with his obsession and intensity, which all stemmed from the love of his family! Good Lord, where is your compassion and understanding?

Sorry that got long! I could go on more, but I have even longer posts around here somewhere about this, so I'll be merciful and stop now! Don't worry, I respect your opinions, though! I just disagree big time!

Like I said in another post, human beings as wonderful as Sam and Dean don't generally happen with terrible parenting. Sometimes, sure, but most of the time, a lot of it is due to good parenting. John must surely have done a lot of things right. We just see the boys' pain so much we tend to forget that. And haven't you ever noticed how John looked at his boys, 99% of the time?! Always this deep look of love and admiration. His eyes DRIPPED that.

[Sarah]

[ExtraCookie]

OK, OK, but you know what I meant!

Let me borrow your term, then, and rephrase that to "RADIATED that." (You know, those Winchester "eyeball rays of love" [or however you say it! ] had to come from somewhere!)

Hope you have (or probably "had," by the time you're reading this) lots of fun at the convention!

P.S. Loved the parting laughter; are you secretly Beavis?!

Huh huh huh. That was cool!

Heh heh m heh--yeah! God, you probably don't even know who Beavis & Butt-Head are! Did you say you're 19? So you were, like, 2 when that show came out?! Lol! Awww! Hee hee.

[Sarah]

Dude, of course I know what Beavis and Butthead is! I was a preteen at one point! There were reruns! And to you.

Yes, I know what you meant. And yes, John's eyes did drip/radiate Winchester rays of love. (Er. Can you drip a ray of something? Anyway...)

I will have fun, thank you! It's going to be a jampacked weekend. Totally ridiculous! And I am SO TOTALLY PIMPING OUR SHOW TO NON-WATCHERS!

I'll be all "Harry/Draco? You love it, huh? Try some Sam/Dean... pretty boys... slassshhhhh..." How does a slasher girl resist that? They don't, is the answer!

[Duchess]

[ExtraCookie]

SARAH: OK, I'm gladdened to know you are familiar with my much-loved Beavis & Butt-Head. I was about 17 when that came out and it made me laugh for several years (stupid people can be hilarious); still does, sometimes. If someone had told me then that when I was 34 I'd be having intelligent, mature (and fun!) discussions about a shared favorite TV show with a then-two-year-old, I'd have laughed! Shows what I knew! Heh heh. And you recruit viewers for our beloved show?!! YOU ROCK!! I do what I can, but I don't know many people, hermit that I am!

Lol, a dripping ray. Um, no. I guess that can't happen.

DUCHESS: Oh my God, I'm being fully agreed with about dear John?! *THUNK* Oh . . . excuse me, I think I just fainted for a bit. That's awesome!!!! Well, at least our dear, awesome, damaged John DID get at least two hugs (the best kind) before he departed this life; from his boys! ("It's been a long time." "Too long." *GRAB-SQUEEZE*) *SNIFFLE!* Also, when I said this: ". . . So, he went on the major defensive," I think what I really meant there was *offensive,* although the offense was for defensive purposes (did that make sense?!). And, yeah, can you see John trying to give the boys to a relative and explain to said relative that they needed to be sure to protect them from demons and such? "Um, yeeaaah, John, sure. Um, how about you just sit back and enjoy your coffee there, I, uh, just remembered I have a . . . phone call to make." *goes off to call local nuthatch* Yeah. Not a good idea.

All this John posting inspired me to write a very short Supernatural story right after typing that long post about him. It's set when Dean was 14 and focuses on Dean and John; a weak moment for John, a parental/caretaking-way-before-his-time moment for Dean. I've never delved into fanfic writing. (NOTE: this is just straightforward, true-to-the-show stuff! I don't do Slash or whatever! Sorry, Sarah!) For one thing, I don't like most of what little fanfic I've ever read. I find the occasional gem, but most of it's not so good. So, I'm leary of the whole thing. Also, I'm NOT a writer (though I've toyed with the idea a bit), it was very late and I was very tired, I haven't even tried to write, creatively, even so much as a poem in nearly a decade and the story just hit me, the basics of it fully-formed, very suddenly and, rather than thinking about it first then carefully typing it out, it just flowed from me and I literally created it and typed it at the same time (took me about 30 mins.), AND I'm no lit. major or whatever, SO, of course, it aint' exactly a masterpiece! I'm hoping it falls into the sort-of-decent category! Will I ever get up the nerve to post it? Probably not. But I just thought it was interesting to note that I had been inspired to write something creative for the first time in about a decade. What a show Supernatural is!! IF I posted it and people didn't throw up and/or die laughing after they read it, I have at least one, maybe two, other stories of about the same length in mind, giving different Winchester (all 3 of our guys, pre-Sammy leaving) life glimpses. OK, so I'm nervous about just mentioning I wrote the story! Probably won't post it!

P.S. OK, we got way off the topic of this thread, so I just feel I should add: Looks like Dean's going to be less "emo" (I never actually use that word myself, when speaking) next season! At least some of the time! Cool! (There, we're back on topic.)

[Duchess]

In s3, I think Dean will be a little more laid back. After all the YED is dead and Mom's (and Jess's?) death has been avenged. Dean will likely not be so concerned about Sam going darkside, since the YED is gone.

I think they will be chasing around the country after all those spirits who escaped from hell during the finale of s2. The emotions may be more of an issue for Sam this year, since he is now living with the knowledge that Dean has only one year to live AND he did it to save Sam.

Dean could get emotional, if we find out if he's afraid of dying. We didn't know he was afraid of flying until "Phantom Traveler"! Dean also may be emotional about leaving Sam behind and alone to face the world.

After all Sam knows, will he become a hunter just like his father did? How could he settle down and enjoy a "normal" life when he knows such things exist? Sam has lost Mom, Dad, Jess, -- and now Dean, too? I think Sam will have a lot of anger and desire for revenge. He will, of course, do whatever is necessary to save Dean.

Hopefully, Dean will be back for season 4! Surely EK and the writers have a plan hatched already, b/c they can't do the show w/o Dean!!

Please save Dean!! If he dies, I will be the one having emo issues!!

[ExtraCookie]

"Hopefully, Dean will be back for season 4! Surely EK and the writers have a plan hatched already, b/c they can't do the show w/o Dean!!

Please save Dean!! If he dies, I will be the one having emo issues!!"

Of COURSE they couldn't do the show without Dean! Without Sammy AND Dean, it wouldn't be Supernatural! And I stubbornly refuse to believe the show will end after 3 seasons! I must say, though, after this season and Dean gets saved, they should maybe stop having the guys hovering on the brink of death and dying and coming back; at least for a while. Or it will get old and we'll get desensitized to it! Season 4 should probably focus more on supernatural ass-kicking, flashbacks, new plot twists, etc.

I agree! I think Sammy will be the one coming unglued this season! His brother has one year to live and he may still turn evil or be part demon or whatever!

[Sarah]

I don't know that I managed to recruit, but I did find several SN fans at the con! It was lovely!

As far as Dean being emo in season three...fal;sdkfjsldkj I can't say it here. I'll post the new sides and things tomorrow when I'm less exhausted. But rest assured that while he will be a little more laidback, he still has his moments. *snuggles him*