Archive for sn4gu.myfastforum.org Supernatural for Grown Ups! This group is strictly for adult (18+) fans of the CW's Supernatural. Warning: May contain discussion and language that is inappropriate for minors.
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Wardargon
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Supernatural Nitpicks!In the interest of discussion, how about a thread for some of the things about the show we don't think are/were so hot? We all love the show and this isn't a bashing thread, but critique can be just as fun and interesting.
Anyone that knows me knows I'm not a fan of Dean's extreme flirtatiousness with women at inappropriate times, as it makes him seem like a teenager.
I'll post more later.. Any takers?
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Sarah
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I'll field this! And great topic, actually. Everything deserves constructive criticism and if we didn't love the show, we wouldn't be here. 
First of all: Bugs. Oh BUGS. The ending still makes me laugh every single time. They shoved those poor boys in that room with 60 000 bees (as Jen is so fond of pointing out) and then not only do they not show up on camera and need to be computer animated after the fact, but the sun rose at approximately 12:30 AM. *snort* That ending was very cheesy and not well-planned at all.
As for Dean, I think of his flirting as a defence mechanism. He doesn't want to deal with something, he doesn't want to let anyone know what he's feeling, he doesn't want to have a 'chick-flick' moment... he automatically makes light of the situation. It's his way of defusing tension and taking the attention and focus away from the deeper, more concerning aspects of the situation. For example, in Bloodlust when he tells Sam to check in the dead girl's mouth? He didn't want to seem like a wuss, but he did NOT want to do it. So what'd he say to Sam? "Put the lotion in the basket!" Which was SUCH a blatantly sexual innuendo that I actually choked on my tea and had to go back and watch it again to see if I'd heard it correctly. Paired with the look he gave Sam, that was just NAUGHTY.
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calicokat
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Re: Supernatural Nitpicks! | Wardargon wrote: | | Anyone that knows me knows I'm not a fan of Dean's extreme flirtatiousness with women at inappropriate times, as it makes him seem like a teenager. |
I'm interested in discussing this, actually, because while I don't think this is a positive aspect of his character, I think it's a very deliberate one. One thing we see about Dean is that he does have a very juvenile sexuality. From the beginning, if he sees a girl he likes, he lights up and gets a childish kind of smile on his face that sometime's very shy, like this is still something really exciting and new to him, like he doesn't really know what to do with himself. We see it everywhere from Hookman to Tall Tales, and we see that same kind of excitement when he's showing off his homemade EMF device and geeking over werewolves.
For me, I feel like it's one aspect of how poorly socialized both Sam and Dean are in terms of real world, interpersonal interactions. Dean's a 28 year old man who was transient during his childhood and has so far had one long term romantic relationship his whole life (which ended poorly). He's completely dependent on his father and brother, now just his brother, for his self image and (dangerously low) self esteem. I think it's natural for someone with no stable female role model in his past and no experience in relationships to have that kind of over-stimulated reaction, and I don't think it's necessarily something they're asking us to approve of, even if they use it as a source of comedy in some episodes. (We're laughing at him, not with him.)
This is a guy who, as demons have preyed on over and over again, thinks he's worthless in inconcievable ways.
YED: Funny. But that's all part of your MO, isn't it? Mask all that nasty pain. Mask the truth.
Dean: Yeah? What's that?
YED: You know, you fight and you fight for this family, but the truth is, they don't need you. Not like you need them. Sam? He's clearly John's favorite. Even when they fight? It's more concern than he's ever shown you.
Red-eyed demon (RED?): It's all you ever think about. You wake up and your first thought is, "I can't do this any more." You're all lit up with pain. I mean, you loved him so much, and it's all your fault.
Meg: But whatever I do to you, it's nothing compared to what you do to yourself, is it? I can see it in your eyes, Dean. You're worthless. You couldn't save your dad, and deep down, you know that you can't save your brother. They'd have been better off without you.
Demons, as we've seen throughout the series, know how to pick the words that hurt the most. And if they're not telling the truth, they're insidiously reconfirming things that you already think are true, yourself.
And we've seen Dean slip and break in Bloodlust and Croatoan, give in to a homicidal rage and enjoy spilling blood and give into suicidal despair. The guy's pretty darn unbalanced.
So what are girls to Dean? They're these beautiful creatures passing through his life that make him feel for maybe one night that there's something inside him worth wanting and worth giving. What we see in Tall Tales is two sides of an issue in between which lies the truth: Dean may go out, and get a little drunk, and pick up some questionable women, but in his own mind he's Don Juan, in his own mind he's charming the pants off women who think he's a ray of sunshine in their lives. It's one of the few self reflections we see from Dean that aren't entirely negative and don't feed his martyr complex. No wonder he gets a little too enthusiastic! Girls are the one out he allows himself to skirt his misery through.
In reality, of course, he's that boyishly shy guy at the end of Tall Tales confronted with two sexually assertive women who get him fidgety and flustered, and the guy who gets grabbed and undressed and then thrown down on the bed by Cassie. A little bit of a teenager, when it comes to sex (as opposed to his brother, who's maturely certain of what he likes and what he wants, what he doesn't like and doesn't want, and shows it in every romantic interaction).
As for things I'd like to pick apart about the show, myself...I'll have to think on that.
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Sarah
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Well said, Cali.
I would also point out the very first scene we see Dean in. When he first breaks into the apartment his brother shares with his girlfriend, what does he do? He flirts with her. He sees a woman in her pyjamas and automatically gets that charming/cocky grin on his face, then tells her "You are completely out of my brother's league." Despite his knowledge that this is the woman his brother is sharing his apartment and his life with, he can't help slipping into that mode.
Sam is much more mature when it comes to girls, as you've said, and what I find interesting is that while Dean is always teasing Sam about being a "stiff" (ex. Heart) and throwing him at girls (ex. Provenance), Dean is even more awkward around women than Sam. Yes, he can walk up to a girl in a bar and ask her for her sign, but when Sam questions him about Cassie? He stumbles, tries to change the subject, looks embarrassed... and when Cassie says in Route 666 "It isn't easier..." take a look at his face. That is a boy who has had his heart broken by the only girl he's ever loved and is getting salt rubbed in the wound.
Now to focus on the sex scenes. When Heart first aired, there was a huge part of the SN fandom on LJ that declared Sam's scene to be way sexier than Dean's. Many people presented very valid reasons for this: the different lighting, the mood, getting to see Jared's ripped torso, etc. I disagree.
I think the reason people found it so "sexy" was that Sam took control. He saw a girl he liked and felt attracted to, grabbed her, threw her against a wall, then down onto a bed, took her from behind and BIT her. Dean's scene on the other hand? Cassie kisses him first, and he looks surprised and a little in awe -- completely uncertain and vulnerable (Jensen is really really good at that). She then throws him onto the bed and climbs on top of him. Followed immediately by her kissing him, her pulling away to mouth at his nipple... see what I'm getting at? Dean let her take control of the situation for the most part.
It was also a lot more intimate compared to Sam's scene. It was just the act of sex that we were watching with Dean -- it was Dean having sex with a girl he knows, respects, and still loves. There were no acrobatics, no kink, just an intimate sex scene. Now, I'm not saying Sam didn't care about Madison at all, because he did. But he'd known her for three days. Dean has known this girl for at least two or three years, dated her for a long period of time, fell in love with her (big first) and told her everything about him without having to save her from a big baddy (big first). And what did he get for it? She dumped him. Dean was, by my calculations, approximately 23 or 24 when he first became involved in an actual relationship with a woman. Since then, there's been nobody else. Sam was 22 and shopping for engagement rings. *pointed look*
Let's also look at the scenes where Dean ADMITS that he's got all that "nasty pain" and that when it comes to relationships with anyone other than his brother and his father, he has no idea what to do.
1x06 Skin
Dean: Emails from who?
Sam: From my friends at Stanford.
Dean: You're kidding. You still keep in touch with your college buddies?
Sam: Why not?
Dean: Well...what exactly d'you tell 'em? You know...about where you've been, what you've been doing?
Sam: I tell 'em I'm on a roadtrip with my big brother, I tell them I need some time off after Jess.
Dean: Ah so you lie to them.
Sam: No! I just don't tell them...everything.
Dean: Yeah, yeah that's--that's called lying. I mean hey man, I get it. Telling the truth is far worse.
Sam: So what am I supposed to do? Just cut everyone out of my life?
Dean: *shrug*
Sam: You're serious.
Dean: Look it sucks but...a job like this, you can't get close to people, period.
Sam: You're kinda anti-social you know that?
Dean: Yeah, whatever.
1x13 Route 666
Sam: Dean, what is going on between you two?
Dean: Alright so maybe we were a little bit more involved than I said.
Sam: Oh. Okay.
Dean: Okay, a lot more. Maybe. And I told her the secret about what we do, and I shouldn't have.
Sam: Ah look man, everybody's gotta open up to someone sometime.
Dean: Yeah, I don't. It was stupid to get that close. I mean, look how it ended.
Sam was right. Dean is anti-social. Look at the girls who have actually liked him. Not the ones who have jumped into bed with him, but the girls who actually liked him.
Wendigo - Haley: His mouth drops open a little like he doesn't know what to say to a kiss on the cheek.
Dead in the Water - Andrea: She kisses him as they leave and he stands there speechless. He then squirms, scratches the back of his head, smiles bashfully and tells Sam to get in the car.
Faith - Layla: He mumbles, doesn't say much at all, sits next to her on the bed but leaning away. And when she touches his head, he just stares at her. When she pulls her hand away and stands, he closes his eyes for a minute, just sitting in that position.
Jo: She expresses interest and so does he, but he doesn't act on it. And then he starts treating her like an annoying little sister in need of a life lesson. He tells her he'll call her, but looks away while doing it and never does.
So yes, I think it's safe to say that Dean is very emotionally stunted and very inexperienced as far as his sexuality goes, despite the number of women he has had one-night stands with. In fact, during both seasons one and two, there are only four women we actually know he slept with -- Cassie, the cop in Shadow and the two girls from the bar in Provenance.
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ThursdayWench
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 okay, so my posts won't be nearly as involved as everyone else's...i'm a very succint person.
anyway, watching Hunted tonight got me frustrated. usually, its one of my favorite episodes (and y'all know why  ), but the rate of time is so screwed up it kills me!!! 
first, after commercial break, it goes to Sam and Ava coming up to the roof, Gordon and Dean no where to be seen. how long did it take them to get up there?  i mean, really! wouldn't Sam want to investigate quickly, and happen to see Gordon dragging his brother's unconscious body across the parking lot? or perhaps see the Impala?? Then he calls Dean, who is fine and dandy, all tied up with Gordon (  ) Either Gordon was moving at warp speed or Sam is the slowest kid on earth. Then, after Dean tells him the location, it takes Sam until dark to get there! when it seemed to take Gordon about 5 minutes. wtf? I'd think that Sam would move at a faster pace, considering their situation....
idk, the timeframe really bothers me, and its happened in more than one episode. So, if they were to pay attention to any mistakes-not-to-repeat-for-season-3, that is one of them, it fries my bacon!
whew, had to let that rant out....
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ExtraCookie
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I'll biteNitpicks, yes. Constructive criticism is good! I wonder if the Supernatural folks ever see/hear any of their fans' constructive criticism? I'm so with ya on Bugs! I've said it before, I'll say it again: worse Supernatural episode ever. (Although I enjoyed it anyway! Even a bad supernatural episode [and that's the only one, in my opinion] is a joy to me!) I, too, couldn't stand how obviously soon morning happened! They could've solved that easily, too! Could've done a cut-to scene or something. Or a commercial break, then when they came back someone could've looked at his/her watch and remarked on the time. Gotta say they were just sloppy there. I wonder if the writers were under some sort of time contraint when writing that one and just didn't have time to work out the ending. Oh, and Dean's bug spray flamethrower was just laughable. I wonder if Jensen had to fight laughter when he read that in the script and/or when he was acting it? I think I would've!
Also, they need to stop choking Sam and knocking Dean out (especially by slamming him into a wall. Seems like that has happened a lot. Heck, Dean just gets slammed into walls a lot, whether or not it knocks him out. Noticed? Might be a small, even subconcious bit of the reason he slammed Gordon into a wall, huh?). I'm no medical expert but, in real life, when one has been knocked unconcious several times, doesn't that eventually cause brain damage; at least a little? Or persistent headaches or something?! I don't think you can just keep on walking away unscathed from that! Any med. professionals here? Anyone want to play a counting game of "How many times has Sam been choked" and "How many times has Dean been knocked out and/or slammed into walls?" Anyway, it's just getting overdone.
I also need to rewatch Skin to check if this is a valid nitpick, but I seem to recall Dean and the shapeshifter (as Dean) wearing at least one article of the same clothing at the same time; a jacket, maybe? Or his T-shirt? Something. I'll let that stand as a maybe. Feel free to correct me; I'd be glad of it!
Dean's lusty leering at Madison was overdone, in my opinion.
I guess this may be controversial, but I remarked on the CW board that I don't think the boys giving up on Madison's cure after 2 days (or whatever it was; too short a time, in any case) was realistic. I'm not even saying that they had to come up with a cure; just that they should've spent more time searching. YES, I know why they did it, I know what they were going after with the story and the parallels to their situation, etc. And YES, it made for a powerful ending which I loved. BUT I still say it was a mistake, at least as far as how the boys have behaved so far (esp. Sam). I really hope there's a future episode where they realize they may have made a mistake there. That's a good thing! People make mistakes in reality. And the more reality you can inject to the surreality of shows/movies like Supernatural, the more believable it makes them. The more it draws people in. The more it can make people care about and love the characters and the show. I loved watching Dean realize he (as well as John) was probably mistaken with his (their) kill-first-don't-even-bother-asking-questions-later attitude towards all supernatural beings in Bloodlust. It was one of the most powerful scenes of the entire show. (I especially LOVE every bit starting from when Dean gives such a meaningful look to Sam from across the Impala's hood and says "Thanks," ending with that amazing, soul-searching, contemplative, troubled expression on Dean's face before they drive off. Ah, it kills me! Jensen, you're SO good! Go get yourself an Oscar! Um, AFTER Supernatural has been around a long time! Or at least while it's still happening!) Flaws are realistic. Flaws are good. If you make characters unrealistically good and unrealistically mistake-proof (like Clark Kent! He's so sweet and goody-goody! And when he's not, it seems always due to outside influences! Give me a break! I'm glad Jensen didn't get that part. Jensen's too edgy and good for that. Oh, and he wouldn't be on Supernatural! A tragedy!! Yes, I watch Smallville.), it's hard for us to identify with and love them. I just think giving up on Madison so soon was a mistake; or at least a possible one. I'd love to see both boys come to the same conclusion later on. Would make for another powerful scene.
Oh, here's a funny one! In "Shadow," in the scene where the boys are getting their weapons ready and start talking about if they're nervous and what if they've finally caught up with the Yellow-Eyed Demon--Lol--Sam had just put a clip in and, I'm pretty sure, cocked a pistol and, as he's talking to Dean, he gestures with that hand and points it right at him! LOL! OK, maybe the safety was on, but I didn't see him put it on. Even if it was, is it still a good idea to wave a loaded gun at anyone? Especially a loved one?! I cracked up! I hadn't noticed it until the other day, when I was probably seeing it for the 3rd or 4th time! Ha ha, Jared! That was a good one! That could've been an interesting scene, huh? "Dean, what if this is all finally about to be over and we--BAM!--Oops! DEAN?!! Oh, damn!" 
I know there are more. There's some site that puts, well, flat-out goofs more than nitpicks (I guess my last entry could be considered both, but primarily a goof) at the bottom of each episode recap and they always surprise me. This show is so good and I get so absorbed, I don't tend to notice the goofs. I tend to notice the nitpicky story problems more than those.
That's all I've got for now.
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Wardargon
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Re: Supernatural Nitpicks! | calicokat wrote: |
I'm interested in discussing this, actually, because while I don't think this is a positive aspect of his character, I think it's a very deliberate one. One thing we see about Dean is that he does have a very juvenile sexuality. From the beginning, if he sees a girl he likes, he lights up and gets a childish kind of smile on his face that sometime's very shy, like this is still something really exciting and new to him, like he doesn't really know what to do with himself. We see it everywhere from Hookman to Tall Tales, and we see that same kind of excitement when he's showing off his homemade EMF device and geeking over werewolves.
For me, I feel like it's one aspect of how poorly socialized both Sam and Dean are in terms of real world, interpersonal interactions. Dean's a 28 year old man who was transient during his childhood and has so far had one long term romantic relationship his whole life (which ended poorly). He's completely dependent on his father and brother, now just his brother, for his self image and (dangerously low) self esteem. I think it's natural for someone with no stable female role model in his past and no experience in relationships to have that kind of over-stimulated reaction, and I don't think it's necessarily something they're asking us to approve of, even if they use it as a source of comedy in some episodes. (We're laughing at him, not with him.)
This is a guy who, as demons have preyed on over and over again, thinks he's worthless in inconcievable ways.
YED: Funny. But that's all part of your MO, isn't it? Mask all that nasty pain. Mask the truth.
Dean: Yeah? What's that?
YED: You know, you fight and you fight for this family, but the truth is, they don't need you. Not like you need them. Sam? He's clearly John's favorite. Even when they fight? It's more concern than he's ever shown you.
Red-eyed demon (RED?): It's all you ever think about. You wake up and your first thought is, "I can't do this any more." You're all lit up with pain. I mean, you loved him so much, and it's all your fault.
Meg: But whatever I do to you, it's nothing compared to what you do to yourself, is it? I can see it in your eyes, Dean. You're worthless. You couldn't save your dad, and deep down, you know that you can't save your brother. They'd have been better off without you.
Demons, as we've seen throughout the series, know how to pick the words that hurt the most. And if they're not telling the truth, they're insidiously reconfirming things that you already think are true, yourself.
And we've seen Dean slip and break in Bloodlust and Croatoan, give in to a homicidal rage and enjoy spilling blood and give into suicidal despair. The guy's pretty darn unbalanced.
So what are girls to Dean? They're these beautiful creatures passing through his life that make him feel for maybe one night that there's something inside him worth wanting and worth giving. What we see in Tall Tales is two sides of an issue in between which lies the truth: Dean may go out, and get a little drunk, and pick up some questionable women, but in his own mind he's Don Juan, in his own mind he's charming the pants off women who think he's a ray of sunshine in their lives. It's one of the few self reflections we see from Dean that aren't entirely negative and don't feed his martyr complex. No wonder he gets a little too enthusiastic! Girls are the one out he allows himself to skirt his misery through.
In reality, of course, he's that boyishly shy guy at the end of Tall Tales confronted with two sexually assertive women who get him fidgety and flustered, and the guy who gets grabbed and undressed and then thrown down on the bed by Cassie. A little bit of a teenager, when it comes to sex (as opposed to his brother, who's maturely certain of what he likes and what he wants, what he doesn't like and doesn't want, and shows it in every romantic interaction). |
Well, we've already disagreed on Dean having low self esteem and hunting being a negative experience for him. As for his experience with women, I don't see any canon evidence that's he's immature in respect to relationships with them. He's actually had more than enough experience with them, far more than Sam, and I don't see any reason for him to act the way he does, so it comes off as that annoying American television and movie trait in which adult characters act like too much like kids. I'm not going to base anything on one night he had with one woman or what demons say (because as we've seen, demons always twist things into a lie to cause doubt and cause pain, and I think that's all those scenes reflected). As far as any of us know he could have been as assertive as Sam in bed with most of the others. To me he just comes off more as a user, going out with women without regard to their feelings (fine with me, all's fair in that game) for no other reason than the roll in the hay. I'm pretty sure he gets more of those feelings of self-worth from saving people and families from monsters than sleeping with bimbos. Guess we have to disagree again, lol!
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ExtraCookie
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Wake Up, Props/Effects/Set people!This is just something very minor. It is an effects problem. Or props. Or set design. I'm not sure who, exactly, was in charge here.
But in the "Usual Suspects" episode, I couldn't help but notice that when Sam and Linda Blair's character were in the Ashland Supplies building, and noticing the wording on the window, when you could see it on the wall, the words were light with shadow around them. It should've been the other way around. The wording was solid and would block out light. So, we should've seen the wording on the wall as shadow with light around it. It's just that it's very simple. It was a dumb mistake. I guess they just liked the way it looked the other way around better, and hoped no one would notice. Cuz I guess a lot of teens watch the show, and teens maybe tend to focus more on other stuff; like the guys' looks. But I wish they'd remember that more mature people and smart people watch the show, too, and try to catch those small mistakes for us. Keep things as realistic as possible. It enhances the show and helps us buy the unrealistic stuff better.
*shrug* No biggy. It just annoys me a bit.
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Duchess
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Dean's sexuality | ThursdayWench wrote: | okay, so my posts won't be nearly as involved as everyone else's...i'm a very succint person.
anyway, watching Hunted tonight got me frustrated. usually, its one of my favorite episodes (and y'all know why ), but the rate of time is so screwed up it kills me!!!
first, after commercial break, it goes to Sam and Ava coming up to the roof, Gordon and Dean no where to be seen. how long did it take them to get up there? i mean, really! wouldn't Sam want to investigate quickly, and happen to see Gordon dragging his brother's unconscious body across the parking lot? or perhaps see the Impala?? Then he calls Dean, who is fine and dandy, all tied up with Gordon ( ) Either Gordon was moving at warp speed or Sam is the slowest kid on earth. Then, after Dean tells him the location, it takes Sam until dark to get there! when it seemed to take Gordon about 5 minutes. wtf? I'd think that Sam would move at a faster pace, considering their situation....
idk, the timeframe really bothers me, and its happened in more than one episode. So, if they were to pay attention to any mistakes-not-to-repeat-for-season-3, that is one of them, it fries my bacon!
whew, had to let that rant out.... |
Just a note on "Phantom Traveler" from season 1. Sam & Dean are dressed in black suits w/black ties to impersonate agents from Homeland Security. They are going to inspect the wreckage of the plane that was brought down by the demon.
They walk out of the dress shop and Dean complains about the suit and says he feels like one of the "Blues Brothers." Sam says, "No, you don't. You look like a 7th grader going to his first dance!" Dean looks embarassed and shy (great acting by Jensen), and really DOES look like a 7th grader going to his first dance!! Enough said! That was LOL!
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ExtraCookie
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Pissy Sammy?Y'all can just save this for when you're extra bored, it's nothing mega-interesting or important.
I'm not sure if this qualifies, technically, as a nitpick. It's more of a curiosity. Just thought this was as good a place as any to stick this.
When watching "Red Sky. . ." last week, (which was only my 2nd viewing), I noticed something that I hadn't quite noticed the first time. When watching it the first time, I found Sammy's interaction-with-Gert scenes--though a bit amusing--to leave something to be desired, but I wasn't sure why. This time around, I think I know why: Sammy was so pissy with her! Think about it: our Sammy is usually so super kind, patient, friendly, etc. with anyone, unless they've proven to be evil, bad, etc. He's even understanding of the people who acidentally cause him and Dean trouble (like the cops, who tend to end up doing the guys' jobs, but don't know it, so are crappy at it, as Dean complained about in "Night Shifter"), whereas Dean tends to lose his patience. The Sammy I know and love would certainly be uncomfortable with Gert's advances. Probably a bit irritated, too. But I just thought he seemed extra pissy. Unlike his usual, sweet self. What gives? Does he have a thing against old people? Was he supposed to be displaying a bit of that un-Sam-like quality that we're supposed to be concerned with (because we don't know for sure, yet, if some "other" element came back with his soul)? And if so, why didn't Dean notice; cuz Bela had him distracted? (The guys always notice when the other is behaving oddly. Even if they don't acknowledge it to the other, the audience is shown that they notice.) Did a writer just go too far with his reactions for extra comic effect, thinking we're a dim enough audience not to notice? I guess Jared could've been acting the scenes incorrectly, and nobody bothered to stop him, but that seems highly unlikely. Actors don't get the final say on how they perform, right? Directors and such make that call. So, lazy directing?
Maybe it's just me. *Shrug* I dunno. I just thought it was odd how completely put out and overly-annoyed he seemed. Sure, no one has the right to persistently invade one's personal space, but she really was just a harmless old chick just trying to get a thrill while she still could (can't really blame her!).
P.S. Just so you know, I actually found her a bit icky and annoying, myself. But certainly not to the point that Sammy would react the way he did.
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Jasmin
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I thought it was a bit Icky and annoying, like you said too. I didn't think it was very funny at all.
I didn't notice Sam being more aggravated then usual. I thought his reaction was just fine for being groped by an old lady. *shrugs*
I'd go and rewatch it, but that means I'd have to see Bela  and OOC Sam and Dean
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Jule
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You might be right, ExtraCookie. I only watched it once and I can't force myself to watch it again. Besides the fact that I found Gert extremely annoying (and from the sides I thought she'd be funny, that was very disappointing) I didn't pay much attention to her and Sam. I was too busy hating Bela. And I still am, so I can't rewatch. I'll just pretend RSAM never happened.
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ExtraCookie
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First, I apologize for being lame. I don't know what your abbreviations mean! Taking a shot in the dark, I'm guessing OOC means out of character. RSAM, no clue! Rude Sam? Rumpled Sam? Ravishing Sam? Ridiculous Sam?
Really? You two refuse to watch episodes? I guess I'm a hard-core fan or something, because nothing, not even the wretched "Bugs" ep., can make me not watch the show (I've even watched that ep. at least twice!). As long as the guys are there, doing their thing, I'll watch. I think even if the show became sucky in general, I still wouldn't be able to not watch, because it already hooked me with its former goodness! As for Bela, I don't hate her. It's Jo all over again for me, which means she's just there. I don't care if she is, I don't care if she isn't. She may as well be a tree. *shrug* She does seem to have this odd, un-chemistry with the guys, though. Esp. Jensen. When he's doing scenes with her, things don't seem to flow the way they normally do with him. Not a big deal to me, though. Supernatural tends to tap some internal spring of patience within me! I can forgive it nearly anything. Nearly.
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Jasmin
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I hate watching RSAM (red sky at morning) 
I can take Bela in other eppies, but here Sam and Dean's OOC'ness is just too much for me.
Everytime I hear her tell Dean not to think because he's not very good at it I wanna punch her.
Everytime Dean notices that the hand is gone it makes me wanna cry because she makes him look like the biggest idiot ever. On top of that she's so good a thief that they can't show us how she gets the hand out of his inside jacket
And everytime Sam says "She has Style, gotta give her that" I wanna puke. That has to be the worst line in the history of SN.
I'd rather watch "Bugs" and "No Exit" on a 24 hour loop
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Jule
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No worries Cookie, it took me a while figure it out, too. RSAM means Red Sky At Morning.
And that's the only episode I refuse to rewatch. It made me so mad I wanted to throw things at my screen. My reasons are exactly the same as Jasmin's. I'd rather watch 'Bugs' every day than ever 'Red Sky At Morning' again. And I didn't even hate 'Bugs' that much. The monsters were weak and so was the instant morning, but I liked the family dynamics. The 'Dad is disappointed in me' talk. I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff.
To me, Bela is way worse than Jo. Jo was annoying but I didn't mind her that much. I didn't care if she was there or not. Sam and Dean were still Sam and Dean around her. Bela, on the other hand, drives me so mad I just want her gone. The way the boys act like completely different characters around her is just intolerable for me. I guess my fangirl-heart can only take so much.
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ExtraCookie
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| Quote: | | No worries Cookie, it took me a while figure it out, too. RSAM means Red Sky At Morning. |
Uh, I totally knew that. I was just. . .TESTING you people! Congrats, you passed! (Are you buying this?!) Did I have the OOC one right?
| Quote: | | And that's the only episode I refuse to rewatch. It made me so mad I wanted to throw things at my screen. My reasons are exactly the same as Jasmin's. I'd rather watch 'Bugs' every day than ever 'Red Sky At Morning' again. And I didn't even hate 'Bugs' that much. The monsters were weak and so was the instant morning, but I liked the family dynamics. The 'Dad is disappointed in me' talk. I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff. To me, Bela is way worse than Jo. Jo was annoying but I didn't mind her that much. I didn't care if she was there or not. Sam and Dean were still Sam and Dean around her. Bela, on the other hand, drives me so mad I just want her gone. The way the boys act like completely different characters around her is just intolerable for me. I guess my fangirl-heart can only take so much. |
I haven't even noticed them being out of character around her, except for her being able to steal stuff from them (well, Dean) so easily, even after they're on to her. I just can't get over the hand of glory theft, either. The Dean I know wouldn't have let that happen!
As for "Bugs," I enjoy it. There's no Supernatural episode I don't! "Bugs" is merely bad for a Supernatural episode. I loved the family talk, etc. too (and I think it has my favorite gay jokes. ". . .OK, Honey?", then Sam's mortified look--always funny!) I'll have to watch it again soon to see if I still think it's worse than "Red Sky. . ." or not. I do think RSAM (see, I'm being cool now!) is a weaker episode, though.
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Sarah
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To jump in...
Bugs. Not my all-time favourite episode by any means. But not the absolute worst you can get, either. Like Jule, I was a fan of the family scenes and every single time I watch the "We accept home owners of every race, religion, ethnicity or...sexual orientation" scene, I crack. right. up. Dean's FACE. Sam's FACE. The "Okay honey?" butt slap! Classic. <3 I know a lot of people hate that scene, but I thought it was just adorable how they handled it. They didn't flip out, they just went with it and rolled their eyes a little as if it'd happened before and they'd learned there was nothing they could do about it.
No Exit/Jo. I absolutely hated Jo. Like could not stand her. Until BUaBS aired. I liked her in that episode. I've already outlined by reasons for not liking the character up until that point, but just to summarise: In BUaBS, Jo had left home and was living alone, supporting herself, and had GROWN UP. She was no longer the rebellious little girl stuck in a 20-something body she'd been previously. It made me warm up to her.
RSaM. Again, not my favourite episode. But it could've been worse. There are some scenes in it that I really liked. The Bela-ness was a little over the top, as Kripke has since pointed out. But the reasons that I wasn't a HUGE fan are the same as all of yours: calling Dean stupid repeatedly, being able to steal the hand, just handing them money as a 'sorry', and getting saved by them.
Since it aired and since Fresh Blood aired, I've somewhat changed by tune on the last. Dean and Sam have proven themselves time and again to be the sort of guys that just need to SAVE people. Even if the people are unbelievable douchebags. But in FB, Dean has finally had enough. That bitch set Gordon on his baby brother, and THAT is unforgivable. I think Bela ought to watch her back next time she's around Dean.
Overall, I can watch every single episode again and again. Er...and have. But you know what one of my pet-peeve episodes is? Heart. I mean, a lot of the scenes were adorable. But I'm not a fan of the actress who played Madison (and then I watched her in OTH and hated her on that show, too, figures) because she, like Cassie, wasn't a good actress. And the sex scene sort of makes me laugh every time because of all the lighting and zooming in on Jared's muscles. *snort* A lot of people spontaneously combusted when that aired and voted it a million times hotter than the Dean sex scene we got in Route 666. Personally? I was a fan of that one. Understated, low lighting, nothing too dramatic, intimate. Both were appropriate to the mood of the show/the emotional state of the boys, but Sam's was just a little over the top for me.
I wish they'd bring someone like Taylor (Sarah) back to the show. Only... from watching the S1 gag reel, I think she may have been the reason that Jared and Jensen had that one fight that year. Jensen's face throughout those repeated takes is like a thundercloud. Seriously. Go back and watch that and then watch the S2 gag reel where Jared's fucking around in the kitchen during Heart. It's like night and day.
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ExtraCookie
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| Quote: | | The Bela-ness was a little over the top, as Kripke has since pointed out. |
Really?! When?! Where?! Could you direct me to where he said that please? Or tell me what he said from memory? Cuz he's right!
| Quote: | | Dean and Sam have proven themselves time and again to be the sort of guys that just need to SAVE people. Even if the people are unbelievable douchebags. |
Absolutely. It's been shown as part of who they are almost from the start! And Sammy is actually normally amazingly kind/sympathetic, etc. with even those annoying folks, which I love. And Dean usually isn't, which I also love. Guess it's the contrast. But I also love how, despite his lack of patience, he does *care* and, after a few smart-assed comments, just lets Sammy do the direct dealing with them. It's just fun! But, yeah, of course they saved Bela. I knew they would. But you're right. After what she did in F.B., that may be the last time that happens! I can't imagine what could happen to win back Dean's patience (what little he ever had) with her. And surely even Sammy will have lost his patience as well; she almost got him killed, and forced him to have to kill (which would've almost certainly happened sooner or later anyway, but still. . . would've been nice to not have been forced into it early by someone else).
I like both sex scenes. There were a few off things in Sammy's, but it was still good. And the off things maybe sort of worked a bit; I mean, the guy hadn't had any in, what, a year? More? And the circumstances were unusual to say the least. Maybe it shouldn't have looked perfect. I think the biting made up for any wrongs, pretty much.
| Quote: | | I wish they'd bring someone like Taylor (Sarah) back to the show. Only... from watching the S1 gag reel, I think she may have been the reason that Jared and Jensen had that one fight that year. Jensen's face throughout those repeated takes is like a thundercloud. Seriously. Go back and watch that and then watch the S2 gag reel where Jared's fucking around in the kitchen during Heart. It's like night and day. |
Yes, you may remember I loved Sarah. Boy, do I wish they'd bring her back! As to the gag reels, both of which I've seen more times than I'm comfortable admitting, it's always seemed that in those bloopers with "Sarah" that Jensen was just trying to stay in character. If you watch the actual episode, Dean is sitting there, being serious, while Sammy and Sarah are talking. I think Jensen maybe looked a TAD annoyed, but I don't see why it would be with Taylor, judging from the bloopers, because in the bloopers, JARED was the one who kept messing up. Taylor was the one hanging in there, while Jared kept laughing and messing up the take. So, if he even was annoyed, I'd guess it was with Jared. Jared had a serious case of the giggles in that scene! Taylor seemed frustrated too, but was being a good sport about it. Jared's adorable and laughing is fun, but I guess when you just want to get a scene over with & get on with your day so you can go "home" it can be a bit exasperating. He may've had the tired giggles. You know, when you're so tired everything is funny? Even stuff that shouldn't be?
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Sarah
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| ExtraCookie wrote: | | Really?! When?! Where?! Could you direct me to where he said that please? Or tell me what he said from memory? Cuz he's right! |
Ummmmmmmm I don't have the sources on me at the moment. He's said it in various interviews recently. The latest is the TV Guide one a couple days ago, I think.
| Quote: | | But I also love how, despite his lack of patience, he does *care* and, after a few smart-assed comments, just lets Sammy do the direct dealing with them. It's just fun! But, yeah, of course they saved Bela. I knew they would. But you're right. After what she did in F.B., that may be the last time that happens! |
I don't think they'd kill her...I mean, it took them a lot to work up to killing Gordon as a human. And he'd tried to kill them more than once. Bela's just a bitch and a thorn in their sides. So while I don't think they'd ever go out of their way to save her again, I don't think they'll be killing her any time soon, either.
| Quote: | | And the off things maybe sort of worked a bit; I mean, the guy hadn't had any in, what, a year? More? And the circumstances were unusual to say the least. Maybe it shouldn't have looked perfect. I think the biting made up for any wrongs, pretty much. |
Yeah, see, I get why it was so frantic and all that. Sammy was pretty hard up by then. But it just makes me laugh. That, along with the AWFUL "werewolf" costume just sets me off laughing. Like it's not a TERRIBLE sex scene. Technically, it's good. But with the music and the zooming in on muscles... *snickers*
| Quote: | | Yes, you may remember I loved Sarah. Boy, do I wish they'd bring her back! As to the gag reels, both of which I've seen more times than I'm comfortable admitting, it's always seemed that in those bloopers with "Sarah" that Jensen was just trying to stay in character. If you watch the actual episode, Dean is sitting there, being serious, while Sammy and Sarah are talking. I think Jensen maybe looked a TAD annoyed, but I don't see why it would be with Taylor, judging from the bloopers, because in the bloopers, JARED was the one who kept messing up. |
I agree that he seemed to be trying to stay in character. But it's when Jared starts laughing or messes up or something, you can see him drop out of it and it looks kind of like he wants to sigh heavily or roll his eyes. He never cracks a smile. Not once. Whereas with the S2 gag reel, he's smiling pretty much constantly the whole time. So I don't believe he was angry at Taylor. Just at Jared. Because Jared kept messing around and flirting with Taylor, and therefore making them redo the scene a bunch of times. Actually...it always makes me think he was a liiiiittle jealous to be excluded. *grin*
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ExtraCookie
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Thanks for the interview info! Will check that out.
| Quote: | | I don't think they'd kill her... |
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Of course they wouldn't kill her, I didn't mean that!  Just that I doubt they'll be willing to jump in and save her next time she needs them to. (They weren't exactly jumping up and down to do it the first time!) I've thought about that, though, and knowing the way the show is, if they keep her on it long enough, the guys (and we) will find out her dirty little family-death secret and it'll probably play on their (if not our) sympathy and it will, therefore, make them go ahead and save her again. (Sorry for the run-on!) OR she'll, for some reason, do some big favor for them (??) or something. *sigh* Ya know, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm still not in the I Hate Bela camp, but I DO think more and more that she's just a waste of time. I don't see the point of her being there. If they don't wise up and give us a good reason (other than being that thorn in the guys' sides) for her being there, I could end up in that camp after all. She's superfluous, right now, right?! At least with Ruby, there's intrigue: What's her story? What does she want? What are her plans for Sam? CAN she save Dean's life? She seems to have actual reasons for being around other than, "Hi, I'm a cold-hearted mercenary here to annoy you!" Oh, and we may get to learn a bit more about Ruby tomorrow! 'Bout time!
| Quote: | | Yeah, see, I get why it was so frantic and all that. Sammy was pretty hard up by then. But it just makes me laugh. That, along with the AWFUL "werewolf" costume just sets me off laughing. Like it's not a TERRIBLE sex scene. Technically, it's good. But with the music and the zooming in on muscles... *snickers* |
You hated the werewolf look too? Cool! I probably knew that and forgot it. Alzheimer's anyone?! They weren't even trying on that. For shame. And I get your points about the giggle bits of the sex scene. But, hey, those were some nice muscles, at least!
| Quote: | | Actually...it always makes me think he was a liiiiittle jealous to be excluded. *grin* |
Ah. . . something to consider!
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Sarah
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Honestly? I'm not really a big...muscle person. I KNOW, I KNOW. You don't need to tell me I'm crazy.
But there's all these little girls at the CW boards going on about how Jared's body is so much better than Jensen's because he's all ripped and has huge pecs and massive biceps and a defined 12 pack and stuff.
...but while I'm all for Jared's look, I gotta admit that Jensen's more low-key, almost more natural muscle works for me more? I like slim. I'm not really into a lot of bulk. And growing up in a family of carpenters where there's a lot of construction workers around all the time, I know the difference between hard-earned strength and fitness, and gym-fitness. You know? Eh.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing Jared at all. Just...that whole flex-for-the-camera and show your big muscles thing was sort of 'eh' for me. It's all in what you like, I suppose. The part of that scene that I thought he looked best in was the last bit where they're just lying down and he's not flexing and they're not zooming in on him. He looks so much more normal and natural in that bit.
ANYWAY. Below, I've categorised the "girls of Supernatural" into four separate categories. I think we should create either one thread for each of them or just one thread for all of them so we can discuss the pros and cons. *nods wisely*
This >> denotes a pop-in or minor character.
1) I don't like:
>>Lori Sorenson
Cassie
Jo (although I was okay with her in BUaBS)
Madison
2) I'm okay with, but could do without:
>>Haley
>>Rebecca
>>Emily
>>Pam
The cop chick in TUS
Tamara
Bela
3) I like:
>>Andrea Barr
>>Amanda Walker
>>Charlie
>>Jenny
>>Missouri (although I'm torn on her, because of how she treats Dean)
>>Kat
Layla
Kate
Tessa
Lenore
>>Beverley Tanner (though that's more like...she's a good crazy chick)
Dr. Lee
Angela Mason (aka Zombie Chick)
Lindsay (how AWFUL was she? awesome. <3)
Tyler
Maggie
the first CRD in CB
Tara
>>Lily
Lisa
Katie's mom (name? can't remember)
Ruby
Casey
Mrs. Carrigan
4) I adore:
Mary
Jessica
>> Constance Welch (she was a friggin' awesome ghost)
Meg (FTW!)
Sarah
Ellen
Ava
Molly
Mara
Carmen
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Jule
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| ExtraCookie wrote: | | As for "Bugs," I enjoy it. There's no Supernatural episode I don't! "Bugs" is merely bad for a Supernatural episode. I loved the family talk, etc. too (and I think it has my favorite gay jokes. ". . .OK, Honey?", then Sam's mortified look--always funny!) |
Aw, the butt slap! How I could I forget about that? I can't even count how often I watched that scene. I love it!
| Sarah wrote: | | Honestly? I'm not really a big...muscle person. I KNOW, I KNOW. You don't need to tell me I'm crazy. |
Dude, if you're crazy I'm right there with you. I'm not into bodybuilder-muscles either. I like the natural, sporty-looking ones, not the gym-looking guys.
| Sarah wrote: | | Below, I've categorised the "girls of Supernatural" into four separate categories. I think we should create either one thread for each of them or just one thread for all of them so we can discuss the pros and cons. *nods wisely* |
Yes, we should definitely have a thread for the girls.
Ahem, this is kind of embarrassing because I have watched every episode at least twice (except the season three ones, I'll have to wait for the DVDs) but who are Pam, Lindsay and Tara?
And look at those ads. *points* All about muscles.
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Sarah
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| Jule wrote: | | Aw, the butt slap! How I could I forget about that? I can't even count how often I watched that scene. I love it! |
Classic scene, classic scene...
| Sarah wrote: | | Dude, if you're crazy I'm right there with you. I'm not into bodybuilder-muscles either. I like the natural, sporty-looking ones, not the gym-looking guys. |
Awesome! I was beginning to think I was alone in this fandom!
| Sarah wrote: | Yes, we should definitely have a thread for the girls.
Ahem, this is kind of embarrassing because I have watched every episode at least twice (except the season three ones, I'll have to wait for the DVDs) but who are Pam, Lindsay and Tara? |
I have them all on my computer, so I watch them WAY too often. Now that you mention it, I can't remember which one Pam was.  I went through all the episodes and grabbed the names of the women that were in them. Lindsay was Angela Mason's snivelly roommate. And Tara was the actress in Hollywood Babylon.
| Quote: | | And look at those ads. *points* All about muscles. |
*snort* Oh, Google.
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ExtraCookie
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Firstly, I can't believe I'm talking about muscles online *snicker* That's just funny! But, actually, I'm pretty much the same way; I like slim/muscled. But I have some leeway with it, and Jared's just fine! I do just really hate the wrestler/bouncer/Mr. Universe kind of thing, though! I think that's actually very ugly, freaky and icky! Bleh. Those greased up wrestler dudes make me want to hurl! Jared should stop where he is, though. After all, with Sammy traveling around so much, where's the opportunity for hitting the gym, right?! They both really should have the more random-exercise (that they get from ghost/creature hunting!) look, yes? (They should have extra strong necks and shoulders from all those times of trying to pull themselves off of walls/tombstones too! Hey, that's where Sammy got those bulging shoulders/upper arms! )
As to the Supernatural chicks, damn, I can't even remember a lot of them! I'd need to rewatch all the episodes!
So, where is this thread, so I can say I liked Cassie just fine, although, yes, her acting was weak in a few spots. But, hey, nobody's perfect. And I think, personality-wise, Layla would be PERFECT for Dean. But surely she's dead and their spiritual/religious differences surely couldn't have been overcome. Sorry, this isn't that thread, is it?! Ack!
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ExtraCookie
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Too Much of One Brother, Not Enough of the Other?I put this in this section not because I'm nitpicking anything, but it concerns a nitpick I just became aware of a few minutes ago. I was surfing the net Supernatural-style and learned that some fans feel that one brother is focused on more than the other. Furthermore, it goes both ways: Some think Sam is the main character while Dean's the sidekick and others think it's the Dean show while Sam has little character development.
This actually surprised me, as I've always felt it was 50/50! Some eps. are more Dean-centric, others more Sam-centric while yet other seem to focus pretty evenly on both. I've never felt one brother was focused on or favored more than the other at all. To me, both guys feel front and center always.
I'm just wondering how widespread this is among the fans and if anyone around here shares the above nitpick. I find this nitpick to be very interesting! Maybe either I look to hard at the show or not hard enough.
So, what do you think? Are the guys focused on pretty evenly? Or not?
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Sarah
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Re: Too Much of One Brother, Not Enough of the Other? | ExtraCookie wrote: | | I put this in this section not because I'm nitpicking anything, but it concerns a nitpick I just became aware of a few minutes ago. I was surfing the net Supernatural-style and learned that some fans feel that one brother is focused on more than the other. Furthermore, it goes both ways: Some think Sam is the main character while Dean's the sidekick and others think it's the Dean show while Sam has little character development. |
I've heard this a LOT. People are very divided on the issue, no matter where you go.
| Quote: | | This actually surprised me, as I've always felt it was 50/50! Some eps. are more Dean-centric, others more Sam-centric while yet other seem to focus pretty evenly on both. I've never felt one brother was focused on or favored more than the other at all. To me, both guys feel front and center always. |
You're not alone. I completely agree. If you go episode by episode, one brother is usually the main character of each one, unless it's a "brothers" episode. I think if you look at the seasonal myth arcs, it changes from season to season as to who is the main character. In the first season, Sam was the main character. He was the one being pulled back into that life, he was the one with the powers, he was the one who lost his girlfriend, etc. In season two, it was a "brothers" season; Sam was possibly going darkside, they were both suffering after their father's death, Dean was trying to save Sam and deal with having to kill him if he couldn't, etc. They were pretty equal. Now, in season three, though Sam's got the Boy King thing going on, Dean is the main character because of his deal and the focus on that and saving him. The episodes themselves are still equal as far as shifting focus goes from one to the other to both, but the overall myth arc changes each year.
I think the issue people have is that they're either Dean!fen or Sam!fen and ne'er the two shall meet. I am a Dean!fen, but I see that there is a balance between the boys. It's not that I dislike Sam, it's just that I can relate more to Dean's inner feelings (not his outer personality of jackass/womaniser) and I like his man pain.
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ExtraCookie
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"I think the issue people have is that they're either Dean!fen or Sam!fen and ne'er the two shall meet." Let's see. How to word this. I am more. . ."into" Dean. I mean, I'm more romantically attracted to him. But the thing is I am a "fan" of both boys. I think they're both absolutely fantastic and the show needs them both equally and I love them both to pieces. I don't like one better than the other. I just like them each in different ways (I want to date Dean, I want to adopt Sammy as my little brother. Um, but, you know. . . if Dean died, hey, who knows what could happen? Heh heh. Wait. Is that twisted?).
Yep, I see what you're saying. The main issues, so to speak, may focus back and forth between them from season to season, but I think that, regardless of what's going on, both brothers have been considered equally, fleshed out equally, had equal screen time, equal writers' devotion, etc. It's never ever felt out of balance to me.
The show fascinates me with how it can show one thing and hundreds all see that one thing, and it's taken in hundreds of different ways! Like how people complain that Dean's portrayed as stupid. I don't get that at all. Dean's seemed extremely intelligent from ep. 1 to me! He's common sense intelligent, not studying/booky intelligent like Sammy (well, he is. Just not as much. Just like Sammy has good common sense/instincts too, but not as good as Dean). He's got fantastic instincts, etc. Actually, that seems messed up. If they don't get the impression he's stupid in the first place, then how could he be being portrayed as such? Isn't that a. . .paradox (I think that's the word I'm looking for)?
On this particular nitpick, however, you and I, Sarah, are getting what Eric is trying to get across. I read an interview where he stated that the show isn't focused on any one brother. It is indeed equal; or at least that's how he means it to be. I wonder if he ever gets blown away at the way some people interpret his show.
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Sarah
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| ExtraCookie wrote: | | Let's see. How to word this. I am more. . ."into" Dean. I mean, I'm more romantically attracted to him. But the thing is I am a "fan" of both boys. I think they're both absolutely fantastic and the show needs them both equally and I love them both to pieces. I don't like one better than the other. I just like them each in different ways |
I agree. Everyone here knows I'm a diehard Dean!girl. That doesn't mean that I don't love Sam or that he's not totally necessary to the show. In fact, Dean wouldn't be Dean if not for Sam. Part of why I love Dean's character so much is because of the devotion he has to Sam. You can't NOT be a fan of both boys because they are so inextricably entwined. Sure, I relate to and am more physically attracted to one than I am to the other, but whatever! Sam is awesome and so important.
However, some people prefer one brother over the other, whether character-wise or on a purely asthetic level, and they take that character-centric love of the show to all knew (and selfish) levels, usually turning it into resentment of the other brother because they want 'their' brother to have more face time. It's ridiculous.
| Quote: | | The show fascinates me with how it can show one thing and hundreds all see that one thing, and it's taken in hundreds of different ways! Like how people complain that Dean's portrayed as stupid. I don't get that at all. Dean's seemed extremely intelligent from ep. 1 to me! He's common sense intelligent, not studying/booky intelligent like Sammy (well, he is. Just not as much. Just like Sammy has good common sense/instincts too, but not as good as Dean). He's got fantastic instincts, etc. Actually, that seems messed up. If they don't get the impression he's stupid in the first place, then how could he be being portrayed as such? Isn't that a. . .paradox (I think that's the word I'm looking for)? |
I see what you're saying, yeah. But I think the portrayal they dislike is that when he's always eating or being shown up by Sam, or we are reminded that Sam is the book-smart college boy or when somebody has to figure things out for Dean or calls Dean stupid, we're being sent a certain message: Dean has a lower intelligence level. Or he's just plain dumb. And the reason they complain about that is that we've seen him prove time and again that he's really smart, as you described. So when we KNOW that he's smart and he's PROVEN it, and then the characters on the show make fun of his inferior intelligence, we're being sent mixed messages. But I think that that's part of the appeal of Dean's intelligence -- it's understated and often hidden, and it adds to his character because he's got low self esteem, which is just fed by people believing he's dumb. Despite the fact that he ISN'T.
| Quote: | | On this particular nitpick, however, you and I, Sarah, are getting what Eric is trying to get across. I read an interview where he stated that the show isn't focused on any one brother. It is indeed equal; or at least that's how he means it to be. I wonder if he ever gets blown away at the way some people interpret his show. |
It's not even just equal. The focus isn't on "Sam. And. Dean." or "Sam and Dean", it's on "SamandDean". You know? It's on them AS brothers. It's not on each of them as individuals who happen to be brothers. It's about brothers. That's the difference. That's why it'll never NOT be an equal focus. Even if a specific episode focuses on one more than the other, the other will always always always be there and be a part of it.
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Jasmin
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| ExtraCookie wrote: |
Yep, I see what you're saying. The main issues, so to speak, may focus back and forth between them from season to season, but I think that, regardless of what's going on, both brothers have been considered equally, fleshed out equally, had equal screen time, equal writers' devotion, etc. It's never ever felt out of balance to me. |
I agree with you, but I'll say that. What I gathered from most fans that have issues with the balance is that Dean has no other reason for being there other then the fact that he's Sam's brother.
If you look at the big picture, the mytharc that has been going through all three seasons it's Sam's and has really nothing to do with Dean. Something's wrong with Sam, Sam's the boyking and I think that's why people feel that Dean is neglected overall. He has no affiliation, I'll say with this storyline other than being Sam's brother. The baddies seem to be interested in Dean only for the sole reason that he's Sam's brother and they can get to Sam through him. I also think that's why so many people hope that Dean's deal will have nothing to do with anybody wanting Sammy.
If you're talking about screentime/ fleshing the characters out etc. I don't think there's any balance issues at all.
If you break it down by seasonal mytharcs, there's no problem either. S1 was all about finding dad, S2 was about the secret-What's up with Sam, S3 about Dean's deal-pretty balanced if you ask me.
Did that even make any sense?
I'm more of a Dean girl myself and I wish he was tied to the overall story with more then just being Sam's brother, but I do love both of them.
SN wouldn't be what it is without both brothers.
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Sarah
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Morning, Jasmin!
| Jasmin wrote: | | I agree with you, but I'll say that. What I gathered from most fans that have issues with the balance is that Dean has no other reason for being there other then the fact that he's Sam's brother. |
:shocked: WHAT?
Are you...
You're ser...
WHAT?
But if it weren't for Dean, Sam wouldn't have been roped back into it in the first place! And the fact that he IS Sam's brother and he's the other half of the dynamic that keeps the show going means he MUST be there. It's not like "Oh, Dean's only there because he's related to the dude. We could top him and have a show about Sam."
| Quote: | | If you look at the big picture, the mytharc that has been going through all three seasons it's Sam's and has really nothing to do with Dean. Something's wrong with Sam, Sam's the boyking and I think that's why people feel that Dean is neglected overall. |
OHHHHHHHHHHHHH. That's the complaint from the DEAN fans. Gotcha. I was having a heart attack, thinking the Sam fans had dismissed Dean out of hand because he shouldn't even be there or something. *breathes* From the Dean fans, I can see why they feel Dean is neglected as far as which brother has the fantastical myth arc goes, but I don't think he's neglected in that myth arc. He's the force, the anchor, the support behind Sam. He's the one who has carried the burden of Sam's and John's secrets, of protecting Sam, of finding a way to save him from his 'Boy King' fate. He's the one who sacrificed his own soul so that Sam could live. He's the one whose death drove Sam to become more like their father, more of a soldier. Without Dean, there is no Sam.
And you can extend that back through their lives. Without Dean, there would be no Sam as we know him. Sam Winchester would not have grown up loved and cared for and protected from dark secrets and darker monster by his big brother. Sam Winchester would not have been able to rebel against his father and take off for university if not for his big brother standing as a breaking wall between them. Sam would not be Sam if not for Dean and vice versa.
| Quote: | | He has no affiliation, I'll say with this storyline other than being Sam's brother. The baddies seem to be interested in Dean only for the sole reason that he's Sam's brother and they can get to Sam through him. I also think that's why so many people hope that Dean's deal will have nothing to do with anybody wanting Sammy. |
I don't think it will. I mean, sure, maybe there'll be an element of "haha Sam, I've got your brother's soul and I'm tormenting it for all eternity...how's it feel, baby boy?" But for the most part? Dean Winchester is a damn good hunter. Dean Winchester has spent twenty-four years of his life being trained to hunt evil supernatural beings. He has sent numerous demons back to Hell. He killed Azazel. He brought Sam (the Boy King) back to life. He is a MAJOR thorn in the asses of all the demons in Hell. Why WOULDN'T they want to take his soul and work it over? But yeah, there's also the fact that they think that with Dean gone, Sam will be more vulnerable and that will torture Dean even more. What they don't know, of course, is that Sam will not be more vulnerable. Broken, yes. But he goes into a single-minded, rage-driven homicidal freak out. Shit goes down!
So yeah. Dean Winchester is damn important. Part of that is his influence on Sam Winchester. But that's not the only part. Hell wants both brothers.
| Quote: | | Did that even make any sense? |
It all made sense, yes.
| Quote: | I'm more of a Dean girl myself and I wish he was tied to the overall story with more then just being Sam's brother, but I do love both of them.
SN wouldn't be what it is without both brothers. |
I see where you're coming from and agree. But I'm happy to believe that he's tied to the myth arc in a very important, irreplaceable way. I suspect that Dean also has something going on with him, too. His hunting instincts are far too honed for there to be nothing special about him. And Hell seems to distrust and want him way too much. Like in "Crossroad Blues"...why would they give up JOHN WINCHESTER just to get Dean's soul? Hm?
Some food for thought!
Am now off to get a full-body massage. FUCK YEAH. *runs*
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Jasmin
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| Sarah wrote: |
I see where you're coming from and agree. But I'm happy to believe that he's tied to the myth arc in a very important, irreplaceable way. I suspect that Dean also has something going on with him, too. His hunting instincts are far too honed for there to be nothing special about him. And Hell seems to distrust and want him way too much. Like in "Crossroad Blues"...why would they give up JOHN WINCHESTER just to get Dean's soul? Hm?
Some food for thought!
Am now off to get a full-body massage. FUCK YEAH. *runs* |
Ohhhhh, full body massage, sounds fun. Too bad I'm stuck with the kiddos, LOL
I've always felt that there was way more to Dean then they're letting on.
And ever since that last look he gave in Nightmare I've been freaking convinced that there's something he knows and doesn't tell. Sadly, though it seems the writers and EK dropped the ball on it, or I'm just delusional and that look meant nothing but I'm insisting it does, LOL
But yeah, i think Dean has to be important in some way to the demons for the exact reasons you mentioned.
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ExtraCookie
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| Quote: | | but I don't think he's neglected in that myth arc. He's the force, the anchor, the support behind Sam. He's the one who has carried the burden of Sam's and John's secrets, of protecting Sam, of finding a way to save him from his 'Boy King' fate. He's the one who sacrificed his own soul so that Sam could live. He's the one whose death drove Sam to become more like their father, more of a soldier. Without Dean, there is no Sam. |
Yeah, all that plus: as far as I'm concerned, Dean is perfectly important as is. I don't CARE if he's involved in the myth arc. Dean, exactly who and what he is is ENOUGH for me. Right, what you said--he IS involved. Has always been. It's just in his own way. And as a "force" all his own, too. Not just a force behind Sam. It's all part of the same tapestry.
| Quote: | I see where you're coming from and agree. But I'm happy to believe that he's tied to the myth arc in a very important, irreplaceable way. I suspect that Dean also has something going on with him, too. His hunting instincts are far too honed for there to be nothing special about him. And Hell seems to distrust and want him way too much. Like in "Crossroad Blues"...why would they give up JOHN WINCHESTER just to get Dean's soul? Hm?
Some food for thought! |
Yep! That's my thinking, too. Hell/the demons seem overly interested in the guy! I have a feeling they're either afraid of him (more than we know) or there's something they want from him somehow. Maybe, maybe not. Either way, again, I still say he's just as involved in everything as Sam. In his own way. I don't care if he ever gets a more direct connection. It feels equal to me. The role in everything he plays, what he does, etc. is all equally as important and interesting as Sam's. In fact, I think I kind of like him being more one of us, so to speak; no direct supernatural involvement. Did that make sense?
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ExtraCookie
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I Don't Know, Do You?In this post, I'm addressing Supernatural questions. Some (perhaps all) may have been answered and I just missed or forgot them. (I've always got too much on my mind, so it's easy enough for this to happen!) As for the rest, you may not know either, but may have theories/ideas/whatever and I'd be happy to hear them. (Just please be sure to note that it is, indeed, your theory/idea; wasn't actually in the show. You know how easily confused I am!) These are random. Also, feel free to post your own Superatural questions, of course.
1. When did Ruby tell anyone her name? I don't recall it ever happening. Just suddenly, one episode, one of the guys was calling her that (Sammy?). It must be nice to be able to record the episodes! It's not important; I'm just curious.
2. In the pilot, how did Dean end up back at Sammy's in time to save his ass?! Even with the deleted scene, I still don't understand what happened. Dean's driving along and. . .Oh! He suddenly has an unexplained compulsion to check his watch. I don't see anything unusual in the watch. Was it supposed to have stopped? Even if it did, why would that compel him to turn around? (John to young Dean: "Son, if your watch ever stops, you are to check on Sam immediately! That's a 'Sibling-In-Danger' omen!" ???) Or was it just Sammy Checking Time (I mean, ya know, I always check on my sister at 9:45 p.m. [or whatever time it was. If you think I'm gonna bother to put on the DVD & check now, you're wrong] too, of course)? I want this explained! I've always been baffled by the fact that he was just suddenly there, in the nick of time. *pout* What did I miss?!
3. This is a big one: WHY DOES THE SHOW KEEP INSISTING DEAN DIED?! Dean never died! (Until season 3 finale, that is!) Unless you count those seconds of clinical death in the hospital. If so, that means that Dean (and everyone else on this show, apparently) thinks that if someone's heart stops, doctors shouldn't try to restart them. Dean feels guilty and wrong for the fact that his heart restarted? Remember, he hadn't agreed to go with the Reaper. (For that matter, he never did. He looked like he was probably gonna, but he DIDN'T.) Didn't even realize he'd met her yet, right? And in "Faith," the boy didn't die, either! He was most likely GOING to but, people, he DID NOT! So, why does he and everyone else keep saying it?! I wouldn't mind it if it was mentioned in one episode (oops) and then it moved on; all shows make mistakes. But a whole plot point has arced from this. IF they're counting that few seconds of clinical death. . . WEAK! Sure, one time a life was taken so that his didn't have to be. . .but he did not die. And later, he MAY have died (doctor didn't say he WOULD; just made it clear that it was highly likely) but a demon interefered to make sure he didn't; again, causing another person to die. . .and he DID NOT. If Dean wanted to say he felt guilty because two souls were taken in order that he DID NOT DIE, fine. But he and everyone else keeps saying he DIED and was brought back. I know it seems nitpicky, but when they're going so far as to have Dean say, very specifically, "What's dead should stay dead," and "I was dead, Sam, and I should've stayed dead" (I may not have gotten those lines 100% correct, but you know the ones I mean) it is flat out incorrect. Is our Dean just an exaggerator and everyone else just goes along?!
4. I've asked this before in the show discussion thread, but: Why do people on the show blame the boys for opening the hell gate? And, furthermore, why have the boys never protested this? I don't get it. Even if the demons spread that rumor (one of the theories), why would hunters believe it? From demons--notorious liars?! If that's how the general hunting world is, then I'm extra glad that the Winchesters have always mostly operated on their own. Good for them!
5. Jared loves cookies so much (it's his favorite word even), do you think it was his idea that Jess leave a plateful of them out for Sammy in the pilot? (OK, I just threw that in for goofiness.) (And he's a boy after my own heart, if we're talking freshly-baked, warm chocolate chip ones. Esp. Pillsbury. Mmmmmm. See why my icon is so fitting, in more ways than one? Thanks again, Sarah!)
6. OK, how did John come away from the boys' childhood home without even so much as a singed hair?! We saw that huge (super cool. Well, not cool. . .it was very hot. Har har.) fireball engulf the guy! That looked cool, but made no sense. He should've at least had bad burns all over his body. Singed eyebrows. . .something! Was John "Supernatural?!" All I've got is that he must've managed to drop to the floor at the very last split second. Sure didn't show that, though. (This doesn't really matter, of course. I just think it's funny. If you have some amusing/interesting answers, bring 'em on.)
That's all I have for now. But, knowing me, I'll probably come up with more later. Thanks for any answers/theories in advance. It's nice to be associated with fellow fans who are more observant and/or have better memories than me!
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Jule
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Re: I Don't Know, Do You?1. I guess it must have been in The Kids Are Alright, but I can't remember it either. I only know for sure that she was the nameless 'girl that just saved your ass' in The Magnificent 7.
3. I think they refer to In My Time of Dying when they call him dead. Not to the few seconds of clinical death, but to his damaged body that caused the Reaper to show up. According to Wikipedia (here is the link, you'll have to copy and paste it. I can't make it work the elegant way, thanks to the bracket in it: >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_(personification)<), a Reaper is either seen as death himself or as some kind of 'guide of souls' who guides the deceased to the next world and has no control over the fact of death. They seem to have used the latter meaning here. In the entire episode the Reaper took only the deceased, it didn't kill. Remember the scene with the magic talking board? Dean told Sam there was a Reaper after him and Sam said something like "If it's here natural we can't do anything about it". And in Dean's talk with TtR (Tessa the Reaper) she told him his body was dead, and there was no way he was going to get back in it. She was there to guide his soul to the next world. His options were going with her or stay at the hospital as a (possibly angry) spirit.
As for 2., 4., 5. and 6., I have no idea. But I want a cookie now!
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ExtraCookie
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"I think they refer to In My Time of Dying when they call him dead. Not to the few seconds of clinical death, but to his damaged body that caused the Reaper to show up. According to Wikipedia (here is the link, you'll have to copy and paste it. I can't make it work the elegant way, thanks to the bracket in it: >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_(personification)<), a Reaper is either seen as death himself or as some kind of 'guide of souls' who guides the deceased to the next world and has no control over the fact of death. They seem to have used the latter meaning here. In the entire episode the Reaper took only the deceased, it didn't kill. Remember the scene with the magic talking board? Dean told Sam there was a Reaper after him and Sam said something like "If it's here natural we can't do anything about it". And in Dean's talk with TtR (Tessa the Reaper) she told him his body was dead, and there was no way he was going to get back in it. She was there to guide his soul to the next world. His options were going with her or stay at the hospital as a (possibly angry) spirit."
OK, so let me get this straight: Just because they know a reaper was after Dean, they're counting that as him being dead? Hmm. . .this is sort of screwing with the show's stories, now that I travel down this path! They, in fact, knew that reapers CAN be controlled. (I didn't read the Wiki thing yet, but I will. I'm just going on Supernatural's take on reapers.) That preacher's wife did it! Yeah, you have to use "black magic," but it's still possible. (And, if I were them, once I discovered there was that way to control them, I'd try to find out if there were other, non-black-magic ways to do the same. Make bargains, etc.) I'll go ahead and accept Sammy's saying they couldn't do anything about it as being the same as won't do anything about it. Although, that rubs the wrong way too, as he was willing in the finale to use evil to save Dean then. He only didn't because Dean insisted he didn't. I said all that to say this: Apparently, in the show, just because a reaper comes for you it is NOT necessarily the end, and they knew that. Didn't "Tessa" even back off when Dean shouted at and rushed her the first time he saw her?! Seriously, why'd she bother? You wouldn't think a powerful being like that would be scared off by a ghost! That's laughable, actually. It's also laughable that'd she'd bother easing Dean into the idea of being reaped. I didn't see her doing that to the little girl (!!! I think between a grown man and a little girl, the girl would need to be eased into the idea most! Sheesh!); she just grabbed her. But it made for some good scenes, so I forgive them. (Oh, and it's odd she said his body was dead. What's her definition? Not what ours is, apparently. He hadn't even been declared brain dead, had he?! He was unconscious due to serious injuries and couldn't breathe. That doesn't equal dead. If she'd said she knew it was going to be dead instead, that would be more logical. But, OK, OK; I'll give this to them: I guess, to a reaper, it's one and the same.)
For that matter, apparently, demons and reapers work with one another. (True, I guess the guys didn't know that then. John did, obviously. I wonder why he never told them?! Will his secrets ever end?!) Which makes it weird that "Tessa" was so shocked when her Dean-reaping got foiled. (Heh heh, maybe they're just used to having more notice. The proper paperwork hadn't been filed or something. If so, damn, she is a hell of stickler!) But, clearly, they must have a history of working together, if demons have the ability to resurrect people (or halt a person's journey to certain death, as in "Crossroad Blues." I mean, it's pretty much the same thing) in bargains!
So, in a way, I could accept your explanation. If I just want to ignore some stuff and not bother rationalizing some other stuff. And it's not such a huge deal, of course, that don't like the show or anything! It just seems an annoying, glaring error. (I love this show. It's allowed at least one!) I still don't feel like it's accurate to say he actually died. He was as good as dead, but he didn't actually die. My nitpick stands! I'm going to somewhat "fix" it by seeing our guys as sometime exaggerators or extreme bottom-liners. They have a "It was almost definitely going to happen, so let's just think/talk of it as though it did" attitude. That's OK.
Now I've got the bloopers of "Tessa" not being able to find Jensen's head stuck in my mind.
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