Best thing about the show

Wardargon · Best thing about the show

Just testing out the poll option.

Vote, comment, suggest.

VampySix

I voted for just "the brothers". I'm as drawn to the interaction between the brothers as I am the demon hunting and killing. IMO, it's their relationship and their interaction that makes the show really good on Thursdays and the demons become a side note to the storyline.

Sarah

Ditto, Kris. More than anything I watch for the brothers. I don't care about all the other characters, really. I mean we all love JDM but Papa John still sort of pissed me off a lot. And I like Bobby and Ellen. But I don't really care much about their relationships with the boys. It's all about the sibling bond! And yeah, it doesn't hurt that I love urban legends, ghost stories, action, research (total geek here), the music, the car, the JOKES...etc. <3

VampySix

Sarah

I'm with you 100%.

That episode was indeed Dead Man's Blood. And what makes his treatment of Dean even worse is that IMMEDIATELY before he said that, Dean was sticking up for him and trying to head an argument off at the pass. I was SO FUCKING STOKED when Dean finally spoke up for himself and told John off. And when John said "Though I'm not crazy about this new tone of yours, you're right" I was like "HA. HAHA! TAKE THAT!"

But even beyond the way he treated them as adults, the way he treated them as kids makes me want to choke him. We got a little taste of their childhood in Something Wicked and John confirmed our suspicions in IMTOD with his little "You took care of Sammy" speech. Leaving a 10 year old to watch after a 6 year old for DAYS? I was lucky if I got to stay alone with my brother for a weekend when we were 16 and 13! With my grandmother living down the street!

He totally robbed Dean of his childhood. It's his fault Dean lives this life, and as such it's his fault that Dean's as flawed as we've been saying on the Nitpick thread.

As for Sam -- kicking him out? Telling him never to come back? And he admitted to him that he wasn't his father, he was his drill sergeant.

Yes, John loved his boys. He cared about them and when he started out he was probably trying to protect them. That was probably one of the root causes for the things he did. He was a parent, after all. But he mistreated them ridiculously throughout their lives. And didn't they have enough abandonment issues without him selling himself to the devil and giving Dean more "nasty pain" to deal with? Yes, I realise that if he hadn't we wouldn't have Dean and I can't even THINK about that. But still. >.<

Kitty

May I join the "I don't think JW was a good parent" club?

I actually don't know that the character was all that well conceived. It must have been quite difficult for JDM to play him with any depth, when he was such a dubious, conflicted character. I certainly don't miss him on the show at all. (Though I love the angst his death is causing Dean).

Don't get me wrong, I think JDM was all kinds of brilliant in Devil's Trap, just not the most sympathic of characters generally. Plus, anyone who is mean to Dean is automatically off my Christmas Card list...

Sarah

Kitty

ThursdayWench

i'm a big fan o' the violence....plus, that usually gives me some excellent oogling moments Wink

vanhorn

SO with you - never liked John. He started to win me over a little by the end, but I really resented the way he treated Sam and Dean. I can't remember one time he actually acted like a FATHER. (Leaving out the dying for Dean thing because that messed up Dean pretty badly.)

Wardargon

I've never disliked John. I do agree that he needed to start treating the boys better (as adults, not kids to be ordered around or talked down to). During all the hunting and Sam leaving and Dean never rebelling or questioning John, he never had the chance to form adult relationships with the them.

calicokat

My favorite thing about SPN is the organic and consistant character development. On network television, very few characters develop at all, confined to rote and easily recognizeable personalities, no matter how long the series. Sam and Dean have been growing from episode one, and they're different people this season than last season. That's what I watch television for. Character development. I haven't found another show that gives it to me like Supernatural, a show where the characters are constantly challenged and forced to grow.

As for John Winchester. I think he's a terrible person, and a wonderful, wonderful character.

Sarah

Well said, Cali. Character development is what I thrive on, which is why it's the brothers I watch the show for. SN is the only show I watch, actually, and while many people tease me that it's for the pretty, it's not!

John was a great character, yes. But an awful father. What I don't understand is the number of fics that are cutesie little stories about John spending quality time with his boys. From what we've seen, that is not the kind of father he was.

ExtraCookie · Ooh, this is long!

Sorry, I gotta stick up for John! I love John. NO, he wasn't Father of the Year, but I understand him. I think he did the best he could. I kind of feel like people tend to forget what happened to him; to his family. Obviously, people's wives don't get murdered on the ceiling by demons in reality. But imagine some more realistic tragedy; as comparable to that as you can, then try to stretch your imagination to make it even more horrible. I also get the feeling that Mary, much like Sam now is to Dean, must've been John's whole world (until the kids came along, of course. And even then, I bet she was still the heart of his life). Maybe he was more Dean-like than we know and (like Dean) was a wonderful, yet bottled-up, hard man to get to know and love (cuz ya had to dig deep to get to the heart, like with Dean); perhaps especially after being in the military and who knows what kind of childhood he had? And she was the one, special person who understood, reached out to & loved him and who he felt amazed to have found. So, losing her; especially that way, was even more devastating than for most others who lose the closest person to them. What he saw would traumatize anyone. (Really kick your imagination into high-gear and think: how would *you* react to *that?!*) I think the fact that he didn't end up like Andy's (that was the kid who killed himself's name, right?) dad (as Sammy remarked upon) or worse (like living in a padded cell) is amazing. NO, he didn't do the best with his kids, but I've ALWAYS seen him as having *tried* his best. I think the boys think that, too; although it took Sam a while to see it, due to him being so similar to John and butting heads with him so much. And, you know, when you grow up, you are able to look back on your childhood more objectively and see if your parent(s) did an admirable job or not and Dean definitely thinks he did and now Sam does as well. I can't see the pride, admiration and *love* in Dean's face and hear it in his voice every time he speaks of him, and the love, respect and regret [for not understanding him better when he was alive and not getting along with him better] in Sam's face and voice when he speaks of him and not realize that John must've done more than a few things right! The boys are smart and have great instincts, so I agree with them there.

Are there obvious situations he should've handled better? Yes. The argument that sent Sam away, for instance. He responded that way because, much like Dean (hey, where do you think Dean got it from?!), he's not so good at just exposing his feelings. He *should* have said something like, "Sam, I'm so proud of you and happy for you. BUT I'm afraid to let you out of my sight. With all that's happened [note: and I'm guessing he knew some about the demons-after-particular-kids thing even at this point, which would explain a lot], I just hate the idea of you being too far away to protect. I'm not saying you shouldn't go to school, but maybe there's some way we can work it out to where your brother and I can stay close." But, like Dean, he couldn't do that, so he tried to get him to stay the only way he could--by taking the hard line and more or less ordering him to stay & hoping it would work. And I'm sure Sam wasn't reacting well to his opening statements so to speak, which got his defensiveness up, and his fear for his son also got his emotions stirred up too much and, there ya go, things just came out all wrong and--The Big Fight occurred. Another mistake: Probably having too much pride and/or fear to contact Sam, apologize for his part in the fight, and try harder to say what he meant to in the first place. So, he just lovingly spied on him instead. (The scene where Dean tells Sam this just grabs my heart. Jared did such a great job!)

It can be hard for most of us, who live relatively normal, orderly, happy lives, to remember that we don't usually do all the right things when our lives get derailed. When we get traumatized. When we go though something so terrible we are changed forever and don't quite know how to deal. And sometimes our pain and other intense emotions, like fear and revenge, can give us tunnel vision (like John's tunnel vision for revenge and protecting his kids, as well as, eventually, people in general, when he realized how many awful threats to mankind there were out there. That's another thing about him I admire and respect, like Dean does. I could watch the scene of Dean telling Sam that they should continue his work of protecting people over and over without being bored/annoyed). Also, let's not forget all parents (all people!) make mistakes. I think that, because of the fact that John's parenting style had to turn so strange, his mistakes seem magnified to some.

ONE more point: It's not like he left them alone all the time! He also left thim with people he must've trusted completely; including a pastor (yeah, sure, there are some bad ones out there, but they are generally trustworthy; or so it seems). And just LOOK at how these boys turned out! They have hearts of gold, really give a damn about mankind in general (and we know mankind in general can be shitty, so that's very admirable), are smart, have strong family bonds, are heroic, sensitive, etc.! I say John did quite well, despite his parental handicaps (which weren't his fault!) So, I feel the opposite of these John-disliking posters. I admire him. I get him. I miss him. But I respect others' opinions, of course! Smile

I'm too tired to proof-read! As always, advance apologies for typos (also for stupid wording).

Sarah

Don't get me wrong, I know John tried his best. Being a single parent, and one grieving that much, drives many people to the edge. Look at Max's dad -- drinking, abusing Max, etc. And yes, you're right that he didn't leave them alone all the time...but he did leave them alone in sketch motels for days on end when they were extremely young. Again, yes, at least he wasn't taking them with him at that point. But still.

I miss John too. Because I liked his character, and I liked the interactions between the three. I know the boys turned out great and that they love and respect their dad...but I also think the two of them believe the other is his favourite and that they don't really register on the radar. The last thing he said to Dean? "I know I've never told you this but..." and Dean actually asks "Is this really you talking?" It's almost like they felt the love and respect wasn't returned growing up. So I think that his greatest failing as a parent is one that's understandable, considering the kind of man he is -- he didn't really show or tell his sons how much he cared about them until the very end. And I am so glad he finally realised that and did tell them, because before he died I could definitely see those relationships strengthening, and those wounds they all had healing.

a;sdlkfjas;lkfjd I'm so torn over John. LE SIGH.

ExtraCookie · Ack, long again!

Best thing about the show

Ooh, this is long!

Ack, long again!