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Sarah

LADIES!

I'd like to take this moment to say...
Chyah! We were so totally riiiight! *happy dance*

Now on to the actual theme of the thread: Dean needs a major hug. Sam needs to step up his game a little. Although! That heart-felt "You're my big brother, I'd do anything for you, I love you more than all the money in the world..." speech was a Really Good Start. Thumbs up to Sammy!

...okay, so he didn't actually SAY he loved him, but we've already agreed that Sam and Dean both have eyes that radiate Love Vibes. Therefore his EYES were saying it, and it didn't even need to be said to be heard. The end.

Anyway. We had FIVE confirmations of Dean's lack of self esteem in the finale. The first, of course, was Dean himself. When he was talking to Sam's dead body (and omg, how cute was it to hear him reminiscing about wee!Sam?), he essentially said that his whole purpose in life was to take care of Sam and that'd he'd failed. He later went on to scream "WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO?", then sold his soul for a year of life with a live and well Sam. He nearly said something to Sam at the end "What would I have..." and never argued with either Bobby, RED or YED when they accused him of being insecure and self-destructive.
Of course, those are three of the other instances. Bobby actually asked him if he was that screwed up in the head, and all Dean did was stare at him, which Bobby (and everyone else, I'm sure), took as a very definite "YES!" Then there was RED who was all "You're like a puppy, too much fun to play with." She once again talked about how fun it was to watch him destroy himself from the inside out, just like in Crossroad Blues. And then there was YED who declared that he was pleased he'd kept Dean alive long enough that his self-sacrificing attitude brought Sam back for him.

The last confirmation was Sam (who knows Dean so well and saw right through him and ONCE AGAIN knew EXACTLY what to say to make him feel better! <3333 ack, the love.) in the last scene where he told Dean off for being so stupid and told him that he'd do anything for him, and that he'd get him out of the deal. Dean's face just...it lit up, you know? Oh Sam. Am so glad you are so sensitive and in touch with your feelings. If you were like Dean, you'd both just be emo all the time, and probably dead by now. Or going to Fall Out Boy concerts. Don't know what's worse.
(Sorry if there's FOB fans here. Not my fault you're buckets of crazy. Wink

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ExtraCookie · NO CHICKFLICK MOMENTS Joined: 04 Apr 2007 Posts: 269

Well, I volunteer to give Dean his hug! And, um, you know, some other stuff, if he wants; I do what I can, I'm a giver! Embarassed

Uh, anyway, yeah! Poor Dean! He's not ALL low self-esteem. He's definitely confident in some ways. He knows he's cool. And he really is. That stuff isn't just made up for facade/defense purposes. But he does use it as a shield. Thing is, he's really such a wonderful person that he can't even see he's wonderful (past his coolness, which is rather superficial, I guess), if that makes sense! I am curious as to why he's so hard on himself, sees himself as such a screw-up (I mean, wow, did we ever get a glimpse of just how much of one he sees himself as in the djinn ep.! Sheesh!). Maybe it's just that seeing the suffering of his dad and brother all those years after The Incident made him feel inadequate for not being able to fix everything for them, which I'm sure he wanted to more than anything. I mean, I guess his train of thought was basically, "Dad's a wreck because he lost the love of his life in a freaky, hideous manner and Sammy's just a baby/little kid, so it's up to me to hold things together and fix whatever I can." He seems to have focused almost soley on their pain & problems and just swept his own under the rug of his coolness. Knowing Sammy, he must've tried to be there for him, but, esp. in all the years he was a kid, he wasn't able to keep from being pushed away by Dean. (Heh heh, he's all grown up [literally! Damn!] now and can pound through those defenses, as we've seen.)

I hesitate to say this, in the face of all the John haters/dislikers, but, perhaps, also, John put so much pressure on him to protect Sammy that every time any little misshap occured involving Sammy, Dean felt like a failure (BUT, let me stress, I truly don't think in a million years John realized that was happening or meant for it to! John was lost, disconnected to a degree, hurting and had limited others he could trust either of his son's care to, so having Dean be Sammy's caretaker was all he knew to do! John was NOT intentionally a bad dad, people! NO!)

Anyway, now that Sammy's being more and more aggressive about breaking through Dean's defenses, AND after all this stuff that just went down in the finale, perhaps Dean just might finally start to realize that, rather than a screw-up, he's actually a pretty terrific guy. But maybe not or, at least, not completely, cuz we fans are eating this self-loathing stuff up, aren't we? (But I, personally, would be fine with Dean getting some self-esteem.)
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"Decapitations aren't my idea of a good time, I guess." --Sammy, "Bloodlust"

Squeemister · Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject:

I agree with the fact Dean thinks that most everything is his responsibility, his fault, his job because we saw a glimpse of it in Something Wicked. When he left Sam to go out, the look his father gave him, the whole job of finishing off the Shtriga (Sp?) because he "screwed up" but he was just a kid, but still he didn't see it as an excuse.
He definately sees everything as his job and responsibility.
In the Finale he said "He let down everyone he loved" when he really didn't. He saw it his fault his father chose to make a deal, his fault Sam was taken from the dinner, his fault Jake Stabbed Sam...all these things he couldn't control but he saw them as something he should've been able to.
He's definatly a broken soul and SOOO human. All of Dean's thoughts and his rationality process comes from that one moment when his life changed. He no longer was able to be just a kid, he had to become an adult and react like an adult at a too young of an age. In the finale, he said he wanted Sam to just be a kid for a bit longer. That perhaps saved Sam from this gult and this feeling of no self worth because Sam didn't have to be an adult, Dean was.
Dean had always done what his father said, like a soldier. Continously obeying without any question. If something ever went wrong, he'd most likely think it was his fault because he still has that "Kid" mentality, he never really got to grow out of that stage like when someone yells, sure it might not be the kid's fault, but why is mommy angry when I'm standing here? Kinda like that. Dean has had such a responsibility, the weight of the world on him since he was 4.
I've heard some people go "Why did he make the deal after he knows how it feels?" Dean was not thinking rationally, all he was thinking about was his job, his responsibility of Keeping Sam Safe. Even when Sam was dead, he still felt more than ever that he needed to keep him safe. Sam wasn't where he could, so he did the first thing that came to mind, something he knew would work. I saw it as, "Sam doesn't have a lot of time...I don't have a lot of time to save him...I need to find a way to save him." He kept running that over and over in his head. He wouldn't let Bobby bury him which is another note of that he couldn't let go, that he thought he still had that job.
After the YED was killed, after HE killed the YED, he knew Sam was finally safe and you could see how relieved he felt. He had finally not "Screwed up". All Dean has is Sam and I think Dean lives a bit through him because Sam does have a sense of self worth. Sam doesn't allow himself to keep guilt or keep something like that inside and dwell on it so hard. Dean does. He continously takes that and adds it to the pile and he doesn't let go of it. He doesn't allow himself to forget about it because he sees that as a good and deserving punishment.

*looks at post* Shocked

Sorry..its long. Cool

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Squeemister · Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject:

Oh and I forgot to add somewhere in there that when Sam found out about the Deal and Dean said "Don't be mad at me.." That seriously just showed how much Dean wanted and needed to bring Sam back and how much Sam meant to him because Sam never judged Dean or yelled at him because he made a "mistake"...etc...blah...*runs out of thread*
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Sarah · Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Cutest puppy EVER!

ExtraCookie · NO CHICKFLICK MOMENTS Joined: 04 Apr 2007 Posts: 269

"*looks at post* Sorry..its long."

Oh, isn't that cute? Apologizing for a long post in this place?! Laughing

S.M., I, for one, like other people's long posts (it helps balance out MY long posts!) So, feel free to type on and on!!! And, to your long post, my answer is pretty simple; it's in the subject line! I agree with everything you said. That was some good child psychology there! I see you really noticed how quickly Sammy tempered his initial shocked anger when Dean told him not to be mad as well. Sammy instantly realized how much pain Dean was in and the fact that he simply couldn't have *not* done what he did, and what a statement of love and devotion it was, and the anger just evaporated, replaced with sympathy, love, & determination to save his big brother. (Sorry for the run-on!) I just adored that moment like crazy. The writers are so good at creating moments that are very brief, but have huge impact. They never fail to write in those small, extremely telling moments that highlight both boys' personalities and love for each other. That was just super sweet and true to character. They never go off track with their character.

And thanks, Sarah, for encouraging me not to hesitate. I was just hesitant because I didn't want to see any "See? We told you John sucks!" posts. It seems most fans are John haters/dislikers and, as a result, I've become pretty defensive of him and tend to feel like I'm defending him all by myself. I know you, at least, don't *hate* him, but I'm the only one around here who seems to actually LIKE him (I think he's great)! Look how defensive I am of a fictional character! Laughing

And you think *you're* obssessed with the show?! Laughing

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"Decapitations aren't my idea of a good time, I guess." --Sammy, "Bloodlust"

Squeemister · Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 1:29 pm Post subject:

*giggles* Well ya know...I could keep going. Rolling Eyes

I tend to ramble too. Laughing

I agree, I love how the writers know their characters so well. They know their mind, their feelings etc. Some series you can't see the character other than a fictional character. With Supernatural you see them as human beings because they react as such, nothing is far off the mark to an actual human. In other series, you can pick apart a character and find mistakes and gaping holes because things don't click together. But with Supernatural, the writers write the characters almost like a biography. You know the character, you know the way he reacts and feels, and you can feel like they are real because of it. Its not a fantasy character, its a true to human nature one.
*facepalms* And all I was going to say was > *giggles* and thanks. Rolling Eyes

I'm gonna stop before I go into John's mind. Laughing

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Sarah · Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Yep!

ExtraCookie · NO CHICKFLICK MOMENTS Joined: 04 Apr 2007 Posts: 269

"Same goes for Jo. I've warmed up to her. I still dislike her character up to No Exit. But she was likeable and easy to feel bad for in BUABS."

Ya know, even though Jo isn't my fav. character, and I won't be torn up by any means if she's gone, I've always thought that, as long as they keep her away from a romantic situation with Dean (I've mentioned before that I wouldn't think it so bad if she and Sammy got together), she's good to have around. I just think it's cool for the guys to have at least one person in their age range who truly understands what their lives are like, to a large degree. I think she'd be a good sister figure. (I don't mean a biological sister. I've never gotten all the speculation that she's their real sister.) Also, she seems to know the job pretty well (although she's got some learning to do, and what better teachers than the Winchesters? Esp. our ever-so-patient Sammy! Dean would mostly be a tough, John-like teacher I think. Probably better for him to teach by example!), so it'd be nice to have a young, extra able-bodied person to turn to for help whenever needed.

Hey, there is a demon war starting! I'd say the Brothers Winchester need anyone on their side they can get! In any case, I hope she's not killed off. That's just such a typical, way over-used way of getting rid of characters. Not all fans hate her; they should leave the door open. Besides, she seems to be about all Ellen has! Poor Ellen!

P.S. I would've never thought I'd write the words "demon war" without it making me think cheesy, lame thoughts!
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"Decapitations aren't my idea of a good time, I guess." --Sammy, "Bloodlust"

Duchess