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Wardargon · Guest

In the interest of discussion, how about a thread for some of the things about the show we don't think are/were so hot? We all love the show and this isn't a bashing thread, but critique can be just as fun and interesting.

Anyone that knows me knows I'm not a fan of Dean's extreme flirtatiousness with women at inappropriate times, as it makes him seem like a teenager.

I'll post more later.. Any takers?

Sarah · Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:28 pm Post subject:

I'll field this! And great topic, actually. Everything deserves constructive criticism and if we didn't love the show, we wouldn't be here. Smile

First of all: Bugs. Oh BUGS. The ending still makes me laugh every single time. They shoved those poor boys in that room with 60 000 bees (as Jen is so fond of pointing out) and then not only do they not show up on camera and need to be computer animated after the fact, but the sun rose at approximately 12:30 AM. *snort* That ending was very cheesy and not well-planned at all.

As for Dean, I think of his flirting as a defence mechanism. He doesn't want to deal with something, he doesn't want to let anyone know what he's feeling, he doesn't want to have a 'chick-flick' moment... he automatically makes light of the situation. It's his way of defusing tension and taking the attention and focus away from the deeper, more concerning aspects of the situation. For example, in Bloodlust when he tells Sam to check in the dead girl's mouth? He didn't want to seem like a wuss, but he did NOT want to do it. So what'd he say to Sam? "Put the lotion in the basket!" Which was SUCH a blatantly sexual innuendo that I actually choked on my tea and had to go back and watch it again to see if I'd heard it correctly. Paired with the look he gave Sam, that was just NAUGHTY.

calicokat · TRANSCENDENTAL SIGNIFIED Joined: 02 Apr 2007 Posts: 6

Sarah · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject:

Well said, Cali.

I would also point out the very first scene we see Dean in. When he first breaks into the apartment his brother shares with his girlfriend, what does he do? He flirts with her. He sees a woman in her pyjamas and automatically gets that charming/cocky grin on his face, then tells her "You are completely out of my brother's league." Despite his knowledge that this is the woman his brother is sharing his apartment and his life with, he can't help slipping into that mode.

Sam is much more mature when it comes to girls, as you've said, and what I find interesting is that while Dean is always teasing Sam about being a "stiff" (ex. Heart) and throwing him at girls (ex. Provenance), Dean is even more awkward around women than Sam. Yes, he can walk up to a girl in a bar and ask her for her sign, but when Sam questions him about Cassie? He stumbles, tries to change the subject, looks embarrassed... and when Cassie says in Route 666 "It isn't easier..." take a look at his face. That is a boy who has had his heart broken by the only girl he's ever loved and is getting salt rubbed in the wound.

Now to focus on the sex scenes. When Heart first aired, there was a huge part of the SN fandom on LJ that declared Sam's scene to be way sexier than Dean's. Many people presented very valid reasons for this: the different lighting, the mood, getting to see Jared's ripped torso, etc. I disagree.

I think the reason people found it so "sexy" was that Sam took control. He saw a girl he liked and felt attracted to, grabbed her, threw her against a wall, then down onto a bed, took her from behind and BIT her. Dean's scene on the other hand? Cassie kisses him first, and he looks surprised and a little in awe -- completely uncertain and vulnerable (Jensen is really really good at that). She then throws him onto the bed and climbs on top of him. Followed immediately by her kissing him, her pulling away to mouth at his nipple... see what I'm getting at? Dean let her take control of the situation for the most part.

It was also a lot more intimate compared to Sam's scene. It was just the act of sex that we were watching with Dean -- it was Dean having sex with a girl he knows, respects, and still loves. There were no acrobatics, no kink, just an intimate sex scene. Now, I'm not saying Sam didn't care about Madison at all, because he did. But he'd known her for three days. Dean has known this girl for at least two or three years, dated her for a long period of time, fell in love with her (big first) and told her everything about him without having to save her from a big baddy (big first). And what did he get for it? She dumped him. Dean was, by my calculations, approximately 23 or 24 when he first became involved in an actual relationship with a woman. Since then, there's been nobody else. Sam was 22 and shopping for engagement rings. *pointed look*

Let's also look at the scenes where Dean ADMITS that he's got all that "nasty pain" and that when it comes to relationships with anyone other than his brother and his father, he has no idea what to do.

1x06 Skin
Dean: Emails from who?
Sam: From my friends at Stanford.
Dean: You're kidding. You still keep in touch with your college buddies?
Sam: Why not?
Dean: Well...what exactly d'you tell 'em? You know...about where you've been, what you've been doing?
Sam: I tell 'em I'm on a roadtrip with my big brother, I tell them I need some time off after Jess.
Dean: Ah so you lie to them.
Sam: No! I just don't tell them...everything.
Dean: Yeah, yeah that's--that's called lying. I mean hey man, I get it. Telling the truth is far worse.
Sam: So what am I supposed to do? Just cut everyone out of my life?
Dean: *shrug*
Sam: You're serious.
Dean: Look it sucks but...a job like this, you can't get close to people, period.
Sam: You're kinda anti-social you know that?
Dean: Yeah, whatever.

1x13 Route 666
Sam: Dean, what is going on between you two?
Dean: Alright so maybe we were a little bit more involved than I said.
Sam: Oh. Okay.
Dean: Okay, a lot more. Maybe. And I told her the secret about what we do, and I shouldn't have.
Sam: Ah look man, everybody's gotta open up to someone sometime.
Dean: Yeah, I don't. It was stupid to get that close. I mean, look how it ended.

Sam was right. Dean is anti-social. Look at the girls who have actually liked him. Not the ones who have jumped into bed with him, but the girls who actually liked him.
Wendigo - Haley: His mouth drops open a little like he doesn't know what to say to a kiss on the cheek.
Dead in the Water - Andrea: She kisses him as they leave and he stands there speechless. He then squirms, scratches the back of his head, smiles bashfully and tells Sam to get in the car.
Faith - Layla: He mumbles, doesn't say much at all, sits next to her on the bed but leaning away. And when she touches his head, he just stares at her. When she pulls her hand away and stands, he closes his eyes for a minute, just sitting in that position.
Jo: She expresses interest and so does he, but he doesn't act on it. And then he starts treating her like an annoying little sister in need of a life lesson. He tells her he'll call her, but looks away while doing it and never does.

So yes, I think it's safe to say that Dean is very emotionally stunted and very inexperienced as far as his sexuality goes, despite the number of women he has had one-night stands with. In fact, during both seasons one and two, there are only four women we actually know he slept with -- Cassie, the cop in Shadow and the two girls from the bar in Provenance.

ThursdayWench · Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:54 am Post subject:

okay, so my posts won't be nearly as involved as everyone else's...i'm a very succint person.
anyway, watching Hunted tonight got me frustrated. usually, its one of my favorite episodes (and y'all know why Rolling Eyes

), but the rate of time is so screwed up it kills me!!! Evil or Very Mad

first, after commercial break, it goes to Sam and Ava coming up to the roof, Gordon and Dean no where to be seen. how long did it take them to get up there? Question

i mean, really! wouldn't Sam want to investigate quickly, and happen to see Gordon dragging his brother's unconscious body across the parking lot? or perhaps see the Impala?? Then he calls Dean, who is fine and dandy, all tied up with Gordon ( Razz

) Either Gordon was moving at warp speed or Sam is the slowest kid on earth. Then, after Dean tells him the location, it takes Sam until dark to get there! when it seemed to take Gordon about 5 minutes. wtf? I'd think that Sam would move at a faster pace, considering their situation....
idk, the timeframe really bothers me, and its happened in more than one episode. So, if they were to pay attention to any mistakes-not-to-repeat-for-season-3, that is one of them, it fries my bacon! Evil or Very Mad

whew, had to let that rant out....
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"College boy, thinks he's so smaht!!"
~yes Dean, we are that smart Very Happy

ExtraCookie · NO CHICKFLICK MOMENTS Joined: 04 Apr 2007 Posts: 269

Nitpicks, yes. Constructive criticism is good! I wonder if the Supernatural folks ever see/hear any of their fans' constructive criticism? I'm so with ya on Bugs! I've said it before, I'll say it again: worse Supernatural episode ever. (Although I enjoyed it anyway! Even a bad supernatural episode [and that's the only one, in my opinion] is a joy to me!) I, too, couldn't stand how obviously soon morning happened! They could've solved that easily, too! Could've done a cut-to scene or something. Or a commercial break, then when they came back someone could've looked at his/her watch and remarked on the time. Gotta say they were just sloppy there. I wonder if the writers were under some sort of time contraint when writing that one and just didn't have time to work out the ending. Oh, and Dean's bug spray flamethrower was just laughable. I wonder if Jensen had to fight laughter when he read that in the script and/or when he was acting it? I think I would've!

Also, they need to stop choking Sam and knocking Dean out (especially by slamming him into a wall. Seems like that has happened a lot. Heck, Dean just gets slammed into walls a lot, whether or not it knocks him out. Noticed? Might be a small, even subconcious bit of the reason he slammed Gordon into a wall, huh?). I'm no medical expert but, in real life, when one has been knocked unconcious several times, doesn't that eventually cause brain damage; at least a little? Or persistent headaches or something?! I don't think you can just keep on walking away unscathed from that! Any med. professionals here? Anyone want to play a counting game of "How many times has Sam been choked" and "How many times has Dean been knocked out and/or slammed into walls?" Anyway, it's just getting overdone.

I also need to rewatch Skin to check if this is a valid nitpick, but I seem to recall Dean and the shapeshifter (as Dean) wearing at least one article of the same clothing at the same time; a jacket, maybe? Or his T-shirt? Something. I'll let that stand as a maybe. Feel free to correct me; I'd be glad of it!

Dean's lusty leering at Madison was overdone, in my opinion.

I guess this may be controversial, but I remarked on the CW board that I don't think the boys giving up on Madison's cure after 2 days (or whatever it was; too short a time, in any case) was realistic. I'm not even saying that they had to come up with a cure; just that they should've spent more time searching. YES, I know why they did it, I know what they were going after with the story and the parallels to their situation, etc. And YES, it made for a powerful ending which I loved. BUT I still say it was a mistake, at least as far as how the boys have behaved so far (esp. Sam). I really hope there's a future episode where they realize they may have made a mistake there. That's a good thing! People make mistakes in reality. And the more reality you can inject to the surreality of shows/movies like Supernatural, the more believable it makes them. The more it draws people in. The more it can make people care about and love the characters and the show. I loved watching Dean realize he (as well as John) was probably mistaken with his (their) kill-first-don't-even-bother-asking-questions-later attitude towards all supernatural beings in Bloodlust. It was one of the most powerful scenes of the entire show. (I especially LOVE every bit starting from when Dean gives such a meaningful look to Sam from across the Impala's hood and says "Thanks," ending with that amazing, soul-searching, contemplative, troubled expression on Dean's face before they drive off. Ah, it kills me! Jensen, you're SO good! Go get yourself an Oscar! Um, AFTER Supernatural has been around a long time! Or at least while it's still happening!) Flaws are realistic. Flaws are good. If you make characters unrealistically good and unrealistically mistake-proof (like Clark Kent! He's so sweet and goody-goody! And when he's not, it seems always due to outside influences! Give me a break! I'm glad Jensen didn't get that part. Jensen's too edgy and good for that. Oh, and he wouldn't be on Supernatural! A tragedy!! Yes, I watch Smallville.), it's hard for us to identify with and love them. I just think giving up on Madison so soon was a mistake; or at least a possible one. I'd love to see both boys come to the same conclusion later on. Would make for another powerful scene.

Oh, here's a funny one! In "Shadow," in the scene where the boys are getting their weapons ready and start talking about if they're nervous and what if they've finally caught up with the Yellow-Eyed Demon--Lol--Sam had just put a clip in and, I'm pretty sure, cocked a pistol and, as he's talking to Dean, he gestures with that hand and points it right at him! LOL! OK, maybe the safety was on, but I didn't see him put it on. Even if it was, is it still a good idea to wave a loaded gun at anyone? Especially a loved one?! I cracked up! I hadn't noticed it until the other day, when I was probably seeing it for the 3rd or 4th time! Ha ha, Jared! That was a good one! That could've been an interesting scene, huh? "Dean, what if this is all finally about to be over and we--BAM!--Oops! DEAN?!! Oh, damn!" Laughing

I know there are more. There's some site that puts, well, flat-out goofs more than nitpicks (I guess my last entry could be considered both, but primarily a goof) at the bottom of each episode recap and they always surprise me. This show is so good and I get so absorbed, I don't tend to notice the goofs. I tend to notice the nitpicky story problems more than those.

That's all I've got for now.
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"Decapitations aren't my idea of a good time, I guess." --Sammy, "Bloodlust"

Wardargon · Guest

ExtraCookie · NO CHICKFLICK MOMENTS Joined: 04 Apr 2007 Posts: 269

This is just something very minor. It is an effects problem. Or props. Or set design. I'm not sure who, exactly, was in charge here.

But in the "Usual Suspects" episode, I couldn't help but notice that when Sam and Linda Blair's character were in the Ashland Supplies building, and noticing the wording on the window, when you could see it on the wall, the words were light with shadow around them. It should've been the other way around. The wording was solid and would block out light. So, we should've seen the wording on the wall as shadow with light around it. It's just that it's very simple. It was a dumb mistake. I guess they just liked the way it looked the other way around better, and hoped no one would notice. Cuz I guess a lot of teens watch the show, and teens maybe tend to focus more on other stuff; like the guys' looks. But I wish they'd remember that more mature people and smart people watch the show, too, and try to catch those small mistakes for us. Keep things as realistic as possible. It enhances the show and helps us buy the unrealistic stuff better.

*shrug* No biggy. It just annoys me a bit.
_________________
"Decapitations aren't my idea of a good time, I guess." --Sammy, "Bloodlust"

Duchess · Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: Dean's sexuality

ExtraCookie · NO CHICKFLICK MOMENTS Joined: 04 Apr 2007 Posts: 269

Y'all can just save this for when you're extra bored, it's nothing mega-interesting or important.

I'm not sure if this qualifies, technically, as a nitpick. It's more of a curiosity. Just thought this was as good a place as any to stick this.

When watching "Red Sky. . ." last week, (which was only my 2nd viewing), I noticed something that I hadn't quite noticed the first time. When watching it the first time, I found Sammy's interaction-with-Gert scenes--though a bit amusing--to leave something to be desired, but I wasn't sure why. This time around, I think I know why: Sammy was so pissy with her! Think about it: our Sammy is usually so super kind, patient, friendly, etc. with anyone, unless they've proven to be evil, bad, etc. He's even understanding of the people who acidentally cause him and Dean trouble (like the cops, who tend to end up doing the guys' jobs, but don't know it, so are crappy at it, as Dean complained about in "Night Shifter"), whereas Dean tends to lose his patience. The Sammy I know and love would certainly be uncomfortable with Gert's advances. Probably a bit irritated, too. But I just thought he seemed extra pissy. Unlike his usual, sweet self. What gives? Does he have a thing against old people? Was he supposed to be displaying a bit of that un-Sam-like quality that we're supposed to be concerned with (because we don't know for sure, yet, if some "other" element came back with his soul)? And if so, why didn't Dean notice; cuz Bela had him distracted? (The guys always notice when the other is behaving oddly. Even if they don't acknowledge it to the other, the audience is shown that they notice.) Did a writer just go too far with his reactions for extra comic effect, thinking we're a dim enough audience not to notice? I guess Jared could've been acting the scenes incorrectly, and nobody bothered to stop him, but that seems highly unlikely. Actors don't get the final say on how they perform, right? Directors and such make that call. So, lazy directing?

Maybe it's just me. *Shrug* I dunno. I just thought it was odd how completely put out and overly-annoyed he seemed. Sure, no one has the right to persistently invade one's personal space, but she really was just a harmless old chick just trying to get a thrill while she still could (can't really blame her!).

P.S. Just so you know, I actually found her a bit icky and annoying, myself. But certainly not to the point that Sammy would react the way he did.

_________________
"Decapitations aren't my idea of a good time, I guess." --Sammy, "Bloodlust"