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ExtraCookie · NO CHICKFLICK MOMENTS Joined: 04 Apr 2007 Posts: 269

K, I just realized that thread title may open a can of worms, but I can't think of a better title, so I guess I'll have to deal with the consequences! This is just my response to some thoughts on John that Sarah shared in a post in the "Dream a Little Dream of Me" section. Warning: It's long (SHOCKER!!! Wink

) so do not read unless you are having trouble sleeping, as this should help mightily! May also be OK if you don't want to sleep, but are very bored with nothing else to do and are, therefore, desperate!

I do have faith in John, but it's not the blind faith you seemed to imply. (I don't do blind faith.) It's faith based on what I've seen and heard. To hear you (and others) talk, John was a completely selfish monster who didn't want the best for his kids, but merely used them and/or dragged them around when he didn't have to and Dean is some brainwashed saint/angel who managed to find some miraculous love for him anyway. (And that Sammy, some miraculous way, was able to finally have some imaginary understanding of him and see a lot of imaginary goodness in him after butting heads with him for years, just out of the blue.) That John never did anything to earn any of Dean's positive feelings or thoughts toward him. And, apparently, that John had no excuse for any of his flaws. I just don't see that at all. Am I gonna have to go through each episode, painstakingly one by one, and compile every thing ever said by and about John and everything he ever did in order to point out the guy's good qualities and obvious love and caring for his sons? Cuz I will! Shocked

And I've covered my feelings about the "obsessed with revenge" thing quite thoroughly at the Lounge in the In Defense of John Winchester thread, if anyone ever gets that bored. I'll spare y'all my spewing much of it here! I am merciful! John made some awful mistakes with both kids. I'll never argue that; it's obvious. But I'll forever argue that he didn't MEAN to and that he was NOT merely revenge obsessed (saving random strangers' asses had nothing to do with his revenge). And that most, if not all his flaws came about due to what happened to him. And that he was amazing for being in as good a shape as he was in, considering what he went through. Those things seem obvious to me, too. I love that he's multi-faceted enough that people can have such different views of the guy! Stimulates the brain, huh?

Your theory of Dean not wanting to find John in Seson 1 is interesting and I think it may be partially true. I think he was having a lot of mixed feelings then. He may not have been in an all-fired hurry to find him, like Sammy, but there's no doubt in my mind that he did want to. Esp. when John found them and Dean was so obviously happy and relieved to see him. Looked like he was about to bust out cryin' and hugged the holy hell out of him. (And John looked and did the same. You think someone feels that deeply for a mere "blunt little instrument?" I don't.) One of my fave scenes and fave Dean scenes ever. Do you really think all those feelings and the praise he's given his father comes from nothing more than that Dean is brainwashed & so pure and good that he could love anyone no matter what? And/or just cuz he sympathizes with what happened to him? I just don't. I don't think that kind of love can come about that way. And Dean isn't a saint or angel. He's a human. And that's just how I want him. And your average human doesn't have a deep, genuine love and respect for someone who has done NOTHING but treat them badly; intentionally badly with no excuses, at that.

And as for the "saving people, hunting things" Dean was saying it was following in John's footsteps to do that! ("Dad wants us to pick up where he left off!" ". . .The family business!") Said it was what he thought John wanted them to do. John's the one who did it first, showing his boys how to do it. Again, he never had to save anyone. Not one person. But he did; lots of persons. And it didn't help him attain revenge. For this revenge that it is claimed he was completely obsessed with, all he needed was information. Being a hero? Not required. Sure, it may have been a bit of an emotional balm; somehow making him feel a bit better (he couldn't save Mary, but he could save others). But I don't think that alone could've been worth all he put himself through. I love Dean to bits and pieces and think he is a wonderful person. But, just like he said of John, the man isn't perfect. Yes, he has issues with John (so does Sammy), as he (they) well should. But I also think he (Sammy too) has a love and respect for John that was earned, not just given from the sanctity and purity of his perfect little heart.

Ah, and how about this--concerning "putting family above all else?" I think that was the heart of John's problem in the first place! I think that was exactly what he was doing, only he was damaged and took it way too far and it got twisted. (Dean's got a bit of that in himself, remember? He admitted as much in, what, "Devil's Trap?") I think that love for his family was the whole reason he became what he did. (Not selfishness. Not a petty need for revenge.) He was too focused on righting the wrong that happened to his wife and kids AND protecting his kids from those outside freaky threats to remember to also focus enough on his inside responsibilities as a father. Did that make sense? Damn my lack of eloquence! I think the revenge he sought was not only for himself, but for his boys as well, because he DID love them (both) so very much. Not only did he lose a wife, they lost a mother, and that killed him. And if you think the boys didn't want revenge as well (see Dean in AHBL 2, "That was for our mom"), I think you're mistaken.

I dunno about John's apology being too late. On a very personal note, I can honestly say that my own father has some major things that could use apologizing for. If I got a sincere apology for them, all these years later, it would do wonders. And yes, I'd forgive. I don't think it's ever too late. A sincere apology is a sincere apology, no matter when it arrives. On the same note, there are some major mistakes he's made that I automatically forgive him for, because I know that circumstances beyond his control damaged him. See? I guess I get John. *snicker* Dad was in the military too (was in 'Nam). AND he was a demon hunter! Shocked

OK, OK, so the last part's not true. Laughing

I guess this John stuff, so far, is all about perspective, huh? *Sigh* It's looking like we'll never see him again. That sucks.

_________________
"Decapitations aren't my idea of a good time, I guess." --Sammy, "Bloodlust"

ExtraCookie · NO CHICKFLICK MOMENTS Joined: 04 Apr 2007 Posts: 269

OK, so I'm replying to my own post--sort of-- Embarassed

"But I'll forever argue that. . ." I want to make clear that by "forever" I meant for as long as the info we have so far stays as is. Of COURSE if the show shows us in no uncertain terms that my impressions of John are all wrong, I'll accept it! And if it's well and logically written (which would be a major feat at this point, to me), I'll even be OK with it! Yeah! I didn't mean literally forever.
_________________
"Decapitations aren't my idea of a good time, I guess." --Sammy, "Bloodlust"

Sarah · Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject: Re: John Winchester

ExtraCookie · NO CHICKFLICK MOMENTS Joined: 04 Apr 2007 Posts: 269

*huge, relieved sigh* I was afraid you were gonna tear me a new one about John! I think I had the mistaken idea you strongly disliked him or hated him a little. When, actually, we seem to be about 99% on the same page! (I just maybe love him more; and thinking of what he went through is heart breaking. One of the best things Jeffrey ever did for John was making that shocked, mind-blown, devastated, etc. facial expression while snuggling his face against Sammy outside the burning house in the pilot. Brilliant. It conveyed a lot to me that has stuck with me ever since. I see original John turning into the John we know so well in that one little shot; at least the moment it begins.) I was just nodding my head and saying "yep!" while reading your reply.

The reason I fear my title may open said worm can is cuz over at the CW, discussing John causes that to happen. I know, this isn't the Lounge (thank goodness!). But I've been burned; some people over there take this stuff way too personally, like I'm talking about their own family member. I type this stuff in a casual, aint'-it-fun-to-analyze-this-great-show? way, but maybe it doesn't come across that way or something (so sue me, I'm passionate!). I never claimed to be eloquent! I've been baffled by heated, mean responses to my not-at-all-meant-to-be-mean posts too many times, I guess! Yeah, if you ever dare venture to the thread I mentioned, make sure you're really wide awake and you've taken your vitamins and stuff. You think I ramble here?! You ain't seen nothin' yet! Laughing

Oh, and I'm NOT the only one! Better wait 'till you're on vacation or something. If you check it out, be sure to at least read the very first post in the thread by, I believe, NaughtyScrabble. It's very well done, no matter how one feels about John. Now SHE'S eloquent!

And I knew you were quoting Sam about the faith, too, don't worry! Smile

No probs.

And you made total sense, really! I do see what ya mean and I'm glad that you do see that John's heart was in the right place, even though circumstances twisted him to the point that he did, indeed, do the "wrong things for the right reasons!" That, as a matter of fact, would be a pretty damned good slogan for John! Ya know. . . if he were a. . .product that needed. . .advertising? (Yeah, I don't know where I was going with that!) I guess I've just read too many posts where my fellow fans seem totally unforgiving of the man, harp on every flaw (I can't believe how many people went on and on about his snippy remark about the Impala to Dean! Wow! You'd have thought he shot him!) and seem completely blind to the circumstances he was in and to the fact that he was majorly damaged. Just seems not enough people have thought it through enough to cut the guy some much-deserved slack. (Or maybe they're people who are lucky enough to have had such wonderful, uncomplicated, balanced lives that they just can't see it even with plenty of thought?) And it just always baffles me. Those same folks seem to tend to accuse those of us who aren't blind to these things of being blind to his flaws and mistakes, which, from what other pro-John (or at least non-anti-John) posts I've read, they're not and I know I'm not. We can see & acknowledge the bad; why can't they do the same with the good? I don't get it.

Yeah, John was willing to be shot. But I think the #1 reason he was was because he knew that it would take out for good the top threat to his sons' lives. Of course, you're right, John being John (and the extreme circumstances being as they were; it's not like he had plenty of time to ponder the situation), he wasn't thinking of the devastation his death would bring to his sons and that Dean would probably rather let the demon take him than to witness his BROTHER kill his DAD! *Sigh* That's so John. With Sammy, yeah, I think it was maybe more revenge motivated. But, of course, his dad and brother would finally be safe from the demon forever, too, if his own death took it out. I just want to comment, by the way, on what a great job all three Js did with that scene. Dean begging, in his own death throes, Sammy not to kill John while John was flat-out, desperately begging/ordering Sammy to shoot him with poor Sammy torn between; just a great scene. And I loved Sammy to death in that moment when he said "I know" and just shot John's leg in one swift, smooth motion. Was that maybe our first pure glimmer of "badass Sam?"

"Then you're a better person than me." *SNIIIICCKER!* Yeah, right! Just call me Saint Cookie. Aaaaaa----meeeen. Wink

Of course not. Just different circumstances. Also, hey, you youngster you, time could be a factor there, too. I'm, *ahem* a *TAD* (don't you say a word!) older than you; a *smidge* more water has flowed under my bridge (just pretend that sounds sage). Time can change things. But I definitely understand your feelings about your family tale. Must've been a lovely scene (note extreme sarcasm there. Smile

) And I see where you're coming from.

OK, it's nearly midnight, I'm about to turn into a pumpkin. Say. . . we're not obsessed with this show, right? I mean, um, this is all healthy and stuff, isn't it?! Cool

_________________
"Decapitations aren't my idea of a good time, I guess." --Sammy, "Bloodlust"

Sarah · Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject:

First, I want to direct you to this link. I love that woman's pre-series stories, I do. But I REALLY disagree with her here. I'm planning on doing a meta of my own about Dean throughout the series now that we know all about his daddy issues, and especially after DaLDoM.

Second, I totally thought I'd responded to this ages ago! o.O

So okay. No, I don't totally despise John and I'm not all happy he's dead or anything like that. Also, the CW boards are ridiculous. I would never attack somebody's opinion with anything but rational rebuttal. That's why one of the rules is "leave the hate at home". Too much wank over there!

Hahaha. We need John icons that say that.

I'm actually planning on including that lovely little comment about the car in my post. It's not even that John criticised Dean. It's that we know how often he criticised Dean, how much Dean craved his approval (ex. look at Dean when he first sees him in Shadow, he quickly says "Dad, it was a trap. I didn't know. I'm sorry." And every time John approves of something he does, he lights up like Times Square on New Year's.), and how hard he often came down on Dean. Not to mention, it came right after Dean had tried to prevent Sam from fighting with him/being insubordinate towards him again. And he never once asked how Dean was, despite Sam calling him to say Dean was fatally ill in 'Faith'.

But ANYWAY. Different post! Wink

I am soooo tired right now. Wow.

ExtraCookie · NO CHICKFLICK MOMENTS Joined: 04 Apr 2007 Posts: 269

Thanks for the link, that was fun!

What, in particular, do you disagree with? The whole post or part? I agreed with her, except for the betrayal part. I think I mentioned before that I'm glad Dean said what he said. I certainly do think that what he said was exaggerated, as one poster there mentioned: "'He’s the one that couldn’t protect his family, he’s the one who let mom die!' Dean’s wrong here though. John really had no idea what was happening and he had no way to prevent Mary’s death." Right. How was Mary's death John's fault? It wasn't. Dean said that because he's always (or at least since after The Incident) thought of his dad as some sort of superhero. I'm sure that, growing up, knowing his dad saved other people over and over; seeing him getting through terrible circumstance after terrible circumstance with both himself and potential victims still alive, he probably came to subconciously wonder why Mr. Superhero Dad couldn't have saved his own wife. Felt that someone as awesome as that should've somehow, some way been able to prevent his own wife's death, even though, logically, he knew better. A heartbreakingly childish view that has obviously stuck with Dean--deep down--all these years. And John damned well DID protect his family; at least his kids! (And would've protected Mary if he could've.) They're alive today because he did exactly that! Again, I think this is Dean's childish superhero view of John. Deep down, in some locked-away, childish part of Dean, he probably thought his dad could, single-handedly, protect him and Sammy from everyone and everything. Even the intervention in their lives of far more powerful forces/beings than him. Again, I'm sure he logically knows better, but that childish part of him doesn't. And, as I've mentioned before, the "crap" put on Dean wasn't put there by John. It was put there by the Y.E.D., who put it on John first, who really couldn't keep it from spilling over onto his kids. I think John was just as much a victim as the boys were. Also, as to John "not being there for Sam," I think, again, people are taking this and running with it like they have with the TWO eps. we have where the boys were left alone. I think people are taking that to mean John wasn't physically there for Sam. From what the show has shown, I don't think we have a concrete reason to believe that the boys spent most of their childhood all alone in motel rooms. There's no proof of that. I get the idea John was usually physically there for both of them. But emotionally? That's another story. I think Dean meant that when Sammy needed emotional comforting, most of the time, it was HIM who provided it, not John. He probably did the lion's share of the teaching of how to do day-to-day life tasks, etc. too. But Dean's feeling was pure and righteous. It was a reaction of very distilled feelings toward John's actual failings. And it was certainly justified and a long time coming. The railing Dean did to DemonDean (which was just a part of his subconcious, as was the non-demon him in the dream) was brilliantly written, as this WAS a DREAM. Neither of those Deans were the wide-awake, completely rational and whole Dean, but those deep-down, simple, pure (and almost purely emotional) repressed parts of Dean. Again, that rant wasn't the complete picture of how he feels about John. It was just a part--and an exaggerated, simple part at that. At least, that's my take, of course!

And could you help me out here? My mind's not so young and fresh as some people's Wink

Where has it been shown that John criticized Dean "often?" Or came down hard on him "often?" I have really missed something, as I don't recall any of this. I've seen Dean critcized a few times, in "Something Wicked," for intance. And getting a miffed bit of misdirected criticism thrown his way in "Dead Man's Blood" (he wasn't even miffed at Dean. [Well, maybe a tiny bit, cuz maybe he'd wanted to go ahead and tangle with Sammy.] But he was closer to Dean. Could communicate better with Dean. And knew Dean would still love/forgive him if he snapped at him, which he couldn't say for Sammy, so he took his anger at Sammy out on Dean. Which was wrong. But it's certainly not evidence that he "often" criticized him). But "often?" Where do you get that from? Believe me, I like looking at John (arguably the most intriguing, complex character on the show!) from different angles and seeing how other see him, etc., I just need it to be based on what the actual show has given us. If you'll refresh my memory, maybe I can see what you're seeing too. Also, sorry to be picky, but we don't know that he never asked how Dean was. Who's to say he didn't and it just wasn't shown? Hey, we fans have to remember that these TV shows expect us to realize they can't show every minute of these characters' lives. We have to use our imagination for some stuff. I'm not saying John did do that, but am saying we don't know for a fact he didn't. I know, picky picky! And, honestly, as best I can recall, probably every KNOWN crappy thing John has done, we could point out a KNOWN good thing he has done. Or at least pretty close.

Let me know when you make your post and link me, I'll try to check it out. My computer and/or modem doesn't like Live Journal. More often than not, it freezes the whole works up. I'm glad the link I just checked out was tolerated! Maybe I'll have luck with your post, too!
_________________
"Decapitations aren't my idea of a good time, I guess." --Sammy, "Bloodlust"

Sarah

ExtraCookie · NO CHICKFLICK MOMENTS Joined: 04 Apr 2007 Posts: 269