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Sarah
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Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 478
Location: Ontario
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 Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: Jo: Love her or hate her? |
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I'll paste the previous posts on this topic here. They were originally posted on the "Kristin is..." thread. If you've noticed that your posts have been edited or completely deleted, it was so that I could move the discussion here and not because I wanted to get rid of your post.
Verudellita:
| Sarah wrote: | | Hell no. But Jo made me want to jump through the screen and scratch her eyes out. I much prefered her in BUaBS. She made me hate No Exit, though. |
Sorry, I have to laugh at all, when it's time for "why we hate Jo Harvelle"
Ya know what? When I started with SN, I "met" so much people hatin' Jo, so I was wandering who the hell is Jo Harvelle, I watched the eps. with her and tried to realized what's wrong. Well, yep she's really bad written, I understand a story about "poor girl" whose father died, OK, but she acts like a little child. But still, I really don't think the whole problem's in Jo, the problem's in Miss Tal, I just don't believe her, that's why.
But nobody speaks about one little insignificant thing.  The fact, that the biggest "Jo haters" are just jealous. And now ya can prepare your guns and holy water.
Husitka:
I have never really hated Jo. And I have never really understood Jo haters. I agree with Veru that the biggest Jo haters are probably just jealous.
As for Jensen... I think he's not really uncomfortable when interviewed alone as long as the interviewer doesn't have some too personal questions. He's just all professional and a bit impersonal but still funny and kind.
Kitty:
Well I certainly don't hate Jo, but the character was terribly badly written, and the actress just wasn't an appropriate "fit" for Dean. I am very happy for Dean to have some sex with a sympathetic character (I mean, really, I am!!!) She just didn't work.
As for interviews, in the ones I have seen anyway, JA seems pretty uncomfortable (although hardly surprising given the inane questions he seems to be asked).
Verudellita:
Jo was just too young for Dean, that's it.
Kitty:
Yep, I totally agree! Jo was far too young for Dean.
Sarah:
| Verudellita wrote: | | The fact, that the biggest "Jo haters" are just jealous. And now ya can prepare your guns and holy water. |
It's not that I'm jealous of Jo, though it would've been nice to be in Alona Tal's position during No Exit. It's that Jo, as a character, bugs me. It has nothing to do with Alona's looks or anything like that. I felt that Jo was extremely immature and a little jumped up on her own ego. She's young and wants to prove to her "overbearing" mother that she can be independent, that she's smart and strong and capable. The problem is, as Dean said, she isn't ready. The scene between them in the hallway where he explains to her that she could have a future, has a mother who loves her, etc. really showed the age and maturity gaps between the two of them. Dean, though we usually see him in situations with Sam where he comes off as the less mature one, is years older than Jo is mentally. When he lets himself be serious, we can see that he's mature and experienced. That scene, to me, screamed brother-sister sibling tension. The number of times I have given my little brother the "stay in school, don't touch drugs" speech...and that's how it felt.
Jo came off as a whiny little girl who was too proud and needed to learn how to take constructive criticism. Kripke et al recognized that and decided not to go with the romantic relationship between them, which I was very happy about. They just don't fit. I like Jo's character much better after BUaBS where she'd moved out and was whining less about wanting to be a hunter.
vanhorn:
Oh for heaven's sake! Sarah got to it before I could, but I get really tired of people assuming that anyone who doesn't like Jo is just jealous of her. That's so far from the truth for most of us. (I will grant you there are probably some teenagers out there who get very jealous of anyone with their favorite guy character, but this is actually not the norm with Jo.). I really consider it a cheap argument, especially because on the other boards we would list out the specific reasons we didn't like Jo and still get "oh, you're just jealous". Believe it or not, some of us have fulfilling lives and don't need to get all hyped up over someone stealing an imaginary boyfriend who you're never going to meet!
There are too many reasons to list why a lot of us didn't like Jo, but let's do a quick rundown, shall we? First of all, the character came across as bratty, spoiled, and extremely young. We all knew from the beginning that she was originally intended to be Dean's love interest, and I remember I just kept thinking "Jailbait!". Furthermore, her character just tried TOO hard. "Look at me, I can beat hunters at a video game, I must be great! Look at me, I can beat them at poker! Look at me twirl a knife - I'm so cool!" I cringed in each one of these scenes. Don't TELL me how interesting a character is. Show me. And she never showed me anything other than she was immature and couldn't follow orders.
The other problem is that she was trying to be a female Dean. In fact, she even mentioned this in an interview:
ST: How much of Jo's personality was in the script when you started, and how much of it did you create in the performance?
AT: Well, in the first episode you don't know much about her other than what she says (and it wasn't a whole lot). So I knew a few things about her and a little on her past and the rest I tried to bring myself. You always bring a lot of yourself into whatever you do. In the later episodes the writers gave more of her for me to play with. I knew she was sort of like Dean but a girl, and I tried to have fun with it.
There are so many problems with this I don't even know where to start. First of all, JA MADE the character of Dean. No one else can be like Dean except for Jensen. Secondly, if they were trying to pair them up, why would I want someone who is exactly like Dean with him? Why not someone who has other characteristics that would compliment him? And I'm sorry to repeat myself, but I could not get over how young Jo looked and sounded. Pairing them up just made me want to throw up. And I never felt that way about Dean/Cassie or Sam/Sarah. In fact I really liked Sam and Sarah, and I'm a Sam girl. So please, if you're going to use any argument, just try not to use the jealous one. Because it doesn't work, and it's not true.
Kitty:
Well Vanhorn, I was trying to gloss over the implication that if you don't like Jo it's because you are jealous. And I was a little surprised to see it on this adult site. I totally agree with you. It is pretty annoying to have your opinions brought down to such a childish/basic level.
Verudellita, this is not a personal attack, and you are entitled to your opinion naturally, but would you agree it is a little unfair to use such a broad brush approach? We are all individuals after all.
Husitka:
As for the "couldn't follow orders": Sam has the same "problem" but nobody sees him as immature. I know, I know, there are other reasons you have listed that make Jo immature but I just don't get why the same feature makes one character immature and the other not. Ok, you can tell me, it's the mix of Jo's features that make her so immature but I think Jo could be a very interesting character (because characters evolve, change) -> just look at her in BUABS, she wasn't the same in that epi. She could even look older (make-up, hair-do, clothes) but I think writers of SN don't want to go there, they don't want to work on Jo's character anymore because of the huge negative fans' response towards Jo. Which is a bit sad imo.
I know that in most cases it's not about jealousy but still, look what a huge attention is paid to every female character in the show!!! This character is lame, that character was too shallow... I find it strange a bit. I know the show is about two brothers and their destiny/lives in the first place but I'm a bit fed up with all those one-night-stands female characters. I'd love to see some reappearing female characters in the show. But sometimes I think, it's not what female viewers want. Why did writers leave Sam and Sarah's newly born relationship? Why did they leave Dean and Cassie? I think they were afraid of fans' reactions.
I love the show because I love fantasy/sci-fi, because of the brothers and their relationship, because of the ghosts, demons, fights, because of the mythology, because of the car Twisted Evil but I sometimes miss some good strong female characters in the show. Confused In fact, the writers don't have to introduce the boys' love interests (maybe later in the show because it would ruin a bit for instance Dean's character - ladies' man) but I'm for some good female characters in the show. I loved Missouri for example. She could reappear.
Awwwwwwwww! What a rant!
Verudellita:
Well, OK the simpliest way how to skip all the "Jo affaire" is usually to say, they're just jealous. But that wasn't my point. It's not fair at all, I know, but whole the problem is that I liked whole the idea about Dean or even Sam having a "normal" relationship. Meaning not in one or two eps just partnership. And they cut every try.
When you look at the eps with Dean and Jo (as I said before, Jo was bad written and I didn't like the actress much too, but still), it was an obvious situation - a demon hunter meets a girl whose father *what a surprise* was a hunter a she wants to hunt too. They like each other *and hate of course* so what's the point? Third fixed character. But finnaly there's no point of whole "Jo" story. So why they put her into show for couple eps and started whole the stuff with Dean and also her father's death connected with John? I thought it was pointin' to some important continuation. And there's none! Why?
I've chosen bad word, but I actually meant that they cut it because the fans. So OK maybe it's not jealousy, but just the fact fans started hate Jo.
So my point is that Jo was just another try how to add more women *of course ya can say she's no woman* into show. I agree with Husitka and I didn't meant everybody who hate Jo is necessarily jealous.
Sarah:
| Husitka wrote: | | Sam has the same "problem" but nobody sees him as immature. |
You're right -- Sam did have issues with following John's orders. But it wasn't because he hated following orders in general. It was because John would say "we're going this way", get in the truck and expect them to follow. Sam's issue was that he wanted to be told WHY. He hated that their father treated them like children who were on a need-to-know-basis. And yes, he did take off for school because of all that.
But with Jo, her mother blatantly told her that she would not be a hunter as long as she lived under her roof because she felt she was not ready and it was too dangerous. Her mother always gave her reasons, and I think we can safely say that that's one of the only true "orders" she ever gave her. And while Sam demanded an explanation before he agreed to carry out orders, Jo just screamed that "THAT'S NO FAIR!" Jo is constantly toting how grown up she is, how adult, how ready and different and capable she is. Sam never did that. And he's admitted more than once that he regretted fighting with him all the time.
I actually feel that Jo is more like Sam NOW, because she's left home and is living on her own and has had time away from her mother to think and to learn to be independent. Funnily enough, she didn't seem to be hunting, which was why she left in the first place. She seemed a lot more grown up in BUaBS than in No Exit. You know?
FEEL FREE TO CONTINUE THIS THREAD BELOW!
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Kitty
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Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 48
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Quite right Sarah! We were way off the thread topic there!  |
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Kitty
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Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 48
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, in a nutshell, I don't hate Jo, I don't think she was right in terms of age or personality, for Dean. I have no problem with Dean having a sex life on the show, but a long term love interest is both impractical and unnecessary. I think a regular, strong, interesting female character is definitely called for (I love Missouri too!), but probably not Ellen, although she is far more interesting than Jo...
I agree that Jo was much better in BUABS - slightly more mature, or rounded as a character, or believeable maybe? |
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Sarah
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Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 478
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Kitty wrote: | | Okay, in a nutshell, I don't hate Jo, I don't think she was right in terms of age or personality, for Dean. I have no problem with Dean having a sex life on the show, but a long term love interest is both impractical and unnecessary. I think a regular, strong, interesting female character is definitely called for (I love Missouri too!), but probably not Ellen, although she is far more interesting than Jo... |
The sad thing is that she was apparently already at school, but left because she didn't fit in. So that puts her (probably) at 20 or older. She's only 6 or 7 (at most) years younger than Dean, but acts so much younger. I don't know any girls here at university that act like that. The foot-stomping and glaring and hair-flipping and temper tantrums? It made me think of her as a moody 15 year old girl. Sort of a female version of my brother when he believes the world is out to get him (or, you know, my parents say 'no' to him...same difference at that age).
As for Dean having a sex life...if it was a strong female character who was there for more reasons than just to provide Dean with regular sex...then I'm okay with it. If she's likeable and strong and pretty independent (ie. someone who would suit Dean) then fine. I'm not thrilled, but if it has to happen, that's how I'd prefer it to be.
Omg, LOVE Missouri. Although the way she treats Dean grates on me sometimes. She was pretty mean to him and obviously favoured Sam in Home. Which...I mean, I don't want everyone to love Dean, because that's not realistic. But she made it so very obvious... Anyway. I digress. I also think Ellen is totally cool, and I love her as a recurring character -- but as a sort of mother figure and helper who they can drop in on and ask for advice. I wouldn't want her for either of the boys, obviously, because hello weird. But I like the role they have her in right now. |
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Kitty
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Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 48
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, I didnt mean that the regular, recurring female should be any kind of love interest for Dean, just that the show is really in need of someone like that.
The Cassie/Dean episode worked for me (despite the terrible acting), because it wasn't just a one night stand, but it also wasn't a recurring love interest. Quite difficult to achieve really! (Don't get me started on the "ghost story" for that one though! Whole other thread!)
Missouri was a little harsh on Dean in Home, and clearly feels a bond with Sam - I assume because of his abilities - maybe she feels an empathy towards him that she doesn't have with Dean, but I don't think she dislikes Dean at all. To be honest, he did behave rather childlishly (wanting to put his feet up on her coffee table is a little impolite, let's face it - hardly her fault she knew what he was thinking! LOL). And, as we're on the subject, tasting the "mixture" right after she said there was dirt in it?? Isn't that what a two year old would do? Anyway, as usual I digress! I rather like the relationship and would quite like to see it mature if she came back. She is like an aunt to them it seems to me... and I would love to see her come back! |
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Sarah
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Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 478
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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I think the problem with Dean is that he is VERY tactile. *laughs* If you watch, he's always the one reaching out and touching Sam, touching tables and walls, tasting dirt, sniffing things, etc. He picked up and examined the goo in Skin, too. He's all about getting dirty! Someone actually wrote a really good meta essay on it. 'Course, I can't find it anywhere...it's on some site where they have "weekly lessons" on the show. Anyone know where I'm talking about? I'd like to read it again...
But yeah. It wasn't so much the "keep your feet off my table" thing as the constant sarcasm and the "Dean will clean this mess up" and "He isn't the sharpest tool in the shed" etc. I know she was doing the whole aunt thing, but sometimes I wanted to ask if that was really called for. |
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Kitty
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Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 48
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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LOL, I love that bit where Missouri says that Dean will clear up the mess! His face! Hilarious! But he still does it! Dean isn't used to having a woman telling him what to do, but secretly I think he loves it (and not just because of losing his mother). I think he really likes Missouri and respects her knowledge and the history she has with his Dad. Not to mention, anyone who loves Sam, is okay with Dean!
Tactile? Okay, I agree to a point.. but tasting dirt? (Again though, that face! Too funny!) I have to say Home is one of my favourite episodes from Season 1. How they managed to pack so much humour, sadness, confusion, and terror into one episode, I can't imagine. As will have become quite clear, I am not overly analytical! I just take things more or less at face value! |
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Wardargon
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah count me as a Jo supporter. She's got some maturity issues (like the boys, but I'm not going to analyze which maturity issues are worse than others between the three of them) and has done things that annoy me like Sam and Dean have, but I definitely don't hate her! I see her as a little sister type and have so far enjoyed her interactions with Dean. They are very alike in many ways, and they look good together on screen (which is more than I can say for Dean's past love interests- not that I want Jo as a love interest for Dean, but that's no longer even an issue).
I TOTALLY agree this show needs a semi-regular (just not to outdo the boys because the boys are really all I want to see of humans) female character that is NOT some dopey love interest. Ellen would do, or Missouri. Or even a new character. I keep saying, these boys need trustworthy friends, not rolls in the hay! |
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ExtraCookie
NO CHICKFLICK MOMENTS
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 269
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: Neither |
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Wow, you people (thanks, JDM; I'm calling folks "you people" now. And Dean/Jensen has me saying things are "awesome" more than I used to!) really got deep and analyitical here! I'm impressed; esp. since this is a character that's not even shown up much! Most opinions were reallywell said and I couldn't possibly express them better, so I'll just simply say I don't love or hate Jo. She's just there, like scenery. She's background. I do say she's ALL wrong for Dean (and it looks like, indeed, Supernatural has figured that out, thank goodness). But, as long as they don't go throwing her with him (don't yell at me, but I woudn't have thought it too terribly wrong for she and Sammy to have had a fling or whatever; at least their ages are closer), I don't care if she's there or not. She doesn't enhance the show. She doesn't damage it, either, in my opinion. I don't think the actress is necessarily bad. But the role is not well written. *shrug* She can go, she can stay, as long as she keeps her mitts off Dean. (No, not cuz of jealousy! I've noted elsewhere that I liked Cassie with him. There are a couple of others I wouldn't have minded him connecting longer with, either. Jo is simply all wrong for him. That's all.)
Slightly off topic, I really like Ellen. POSSIBLE SPOILER: And I think the roadhouse is a good idea. I'm sorry to know a certain spoilery thing I've read. Bummer.
_________________
"Decapitations aren't my idea of a good time, I guess." --Sammy, "Bloodlust" |
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Sarah
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Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 478
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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I saw pictures of the spoilery thing you're referring to and it makes me sad as well!
And hahahaha scenery. *snort*
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