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Sarah
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Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 478
Location: Ontario
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 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:39 pm Post subject: 3x10 Dream a Little Dream of Me (updated Dec 5) |
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Thanks again to the CW Spoiler crew... 3x10 casting call, and two sets of sides.
ETA: Uh oh! Turns out that because of legalities, we might not get episode 10! 
1) So Cookie! Er...how you feeling about the Angry!Dean rant about John?
2) How do we all feel about Father Figure!Bobby?
3) Dean's worst nightmare is himself...who's surprised? Poor boy.
4) I so hope the boys talk to each other about this stuff.
5) Some people have expressed fear that Sam will find out about Dean's "resentment" of him. Do you think Dean resents Sam and having to take care of him? Or resents that his father didn't take care of him and therefore made Dean do it? I'm leaning more towards loving Sammy and resenting John for being a shoddy dad, myself.
Last edited by Sarah on Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ExtraCookie
NO CHICKFLICK MOMENTS
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 269
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:05 pm Post subject: My Reply |
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1) How do I feel? Sad. That was very sad. It's possible I'll get misty-eyed when I see that scene. And it doesn't really contradict my opinion of John. It fits. I never said John was an angel who made no mistakes. I've always maintained he was a good man at heart, yet broken and doing the best he could under un-freakin'-believably horrible circumstances. Yeah, Dean didn't deserve that "crap," but it's "crap" that John doesn't seem to really have been able to help (like I always ask of people regarding John's situation--do you really believe you could actually have done any better?)--and he didn't deserve it, either (as far as we know). And, considering the circumstances, Dean could've been saddled with much worse crap. Like an insane, institutionalized dad or severely alcoholic/drug addicted dad. Or a dead dad. Or a dead or evil Sammy. Or a very short (not past childhood) life. And just because a part of Dean thinks these things, it doesn't mean it's Dean's opinion of John's overall performance as a father. That's the bad side, yeah. I still have faith that Dean can see the good side, too. There's nothing to indicate he doesn't. He's just addressing the bad shit in this scene. And why does Dean think Sammy was "doted" on?! Just because of the fierce protection? Sammy doesn't seem to think he was doted on! But maybe it was as close to doting as John could come. I can't imgaine why Dean would have stood up for John all this time, and showed so much respect, pride, etc. towards him, then all of a sudden do a 180. Dean's not great at expressing his feelings, but he's a basically honest person; too honest to do that. I think he feels all of the above. This is just the first time we're really seeing him address, in a more detailed, longer way, the bad stuff. And, hey, it's about time he did. I actually feel sad for John, thinking about that scene, too. Ya know, it makes sense that John, being basically alone, probably needed to feel like there was another "adult," in-charge presence in the family besides himself. It must've been very daunting to be in such a situation. He probably did subconciously insert Dean into that role. Making him into the other adult of the family. I seriously doubt that he was fully aware that's what he was doing and planned on it. It was probably just a subconcious mistake that came from desperate need. That's sad for both Dean and John.
2) Well, duh!  He's obviously a father figure (and a damned fine one), which is just one reason he's so awesome. And, wow, something happens to Bobby? *gulp* And that dream! What did that mean? Did he have to kill his wife in real life?! I've always wondered if there wasn't some tragic reason for his being single! I am totally dying to see this episode now!
3) Yeah, aww.  It's not surprising, exactly, but I guess I'd have thought his worst nightmare was Sammy dead.
4) Me too. And they probably will. Eventually. Sammy usually lets Dean stew a while, then can't take it anymore and blows up at him and forces him to talk. It's funny that he even bothers to give him a chance to do it on his own; hasn't he learned yet?! He may as well, from now on, instantly address things he wants addressed and get it over with. Would save him a lot of stress and aggravation. Dean, too, for that matter!
5) I'd say there's at least a smidge of resentment towards Sammy. Just a bit; it's a sibling thing. And more resentment towards John, as seems to be obvious in those sides. BUT I hope he actually just resents the YED and the whole situation (which, as far as we know, John had nothing to do with making happen. Now, Mary, on the other hand. . . hmmm.) more than either of them. John didn't ask for any of this (as far as we know) and Sammy sure as hell didn't. It was just fate. Really shitty fate! And John wasn't a shoddy dad! He was an awesome dad, esp. considering the circumstances! Argh! You knew I'd have to rise to that bait! 
_________________
"Decapitations aren't my idea of a good time, I guess." --Sammy, "Bloodlust" |
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Sarah
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Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 478
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: My Reply |
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| ExtraCookie wrote: | | 1) How do I feel? Sad. ... And it doesn't really contradict my opinion of John. It fits. I never said John was an angel who made no mistakes. I've always maintained he was a good man at heart, yet broken and doing the best he could under un-freakin'-believably horrible circumstances. Yeah, Dean didn't deserve that "crap," but it's "crap" that John doesn't seem to really have been able to help -- and he didn't deserve it, either (as far as we know). ... And just because a part of Dean thinks these things, it doesn't mean it's Dean's opinion of John's overall performance as a father. ... And why does Dean think Sammy was "doted" on?! |
I figured you'd be a little sad about this. That's why I posed my question to you in particular. I think you're our resident John Lover, so I figured your opinion would be one of the more interesting ones. And I was right! Your faith in the man knows no bounds! I understand exactly what you're saying and where you're coming from. And I do think that John was put into an exceptional situation and that making Dean the other adult instead of parenting him was probably all he could think to do. And Dean did love his father, as we know. But I think that Dean's feelings on the matter have always sort of leaned this way. Much as he loved and admired his father, and trusted him implicitly, I think he resented him for turning into the drill sergeant and turning Dean himself into the parent. For Dean, who was old enough to remember both parents, that would be like losing both of them -- one involuntarily and one voluntarily. *cringe*
And I think that all those reasons are why he figures Sam was doted on. Dean knew much younger than Sam what was really going on, he was the parent, he was the one who had to give everything up to take care of his baby brother, and he would see John as the reason for all that. That John took things away from Dean and gave them to Sam instead. Or made Dean give them to Sam. So in Dean's eyes, Sam was the one who had a parent -- two, really.
| Quote: | | 2) Well, duh! He's obviously a father figure (and a damned fine one), which is just one reason he's so awesome. And, wow, something happens to Bobby? *gulp* And that dream! What did that mean? Did he have to kill his wife in real life?! I've always wondered if there wasn't some tragic reason for his being single! I am totally dying to see this episode now! |
I'm assuming he did have to kill her. And yeah, I know he's obviously a father figure, but for Dean to come out and actually say that he's like a father to him... *tear*
| Quote: | | 3) Yeah, aww. It's not surprising, exactly, but I guess I'd have thought his worst nightmare was Sammy dead. |
He's already faced that nightmare, though. He's got a lot more than that. And his own fear of failing and therefore "causing" or "leading up to" Sam's death is one of the big ones.
| Quote: | | 4) Me too. And they probably will. Eventually. Sammy usually lets Dean stew a while, then can't take it anymore and blows up at him and forces him to talk. It's funny that he even bothers to give him a chance to do it on his own; hasn't he learned yet?! He may as well, from now on, instantly address things he wants addressed and get it over with. Would save him a lot of stress and aggravation. Dean, too, for that matter! |
Agreed. *flop*
| Quote: | | 5) I'd say there's at least a smidge of resentment towards Sammy. Just a bit; it's a sibling thing. And more resentment towards John, as seems to be obvious in those sides. BUT I hope he actually just resents the YED and the whole situation (which, as far as we know, John had nothing to do with making happen. Now, Mary, on the other hand. . . hmmm.) more than either of them. John didn't ask for any of this (as far as we know) and Sammy sure as hell didn't. It was just fate. Really shitty fate! And John wasn't a shoddy dad! He was an awesome dad, esp. considering the circumstances! Argh! You knew I'd have to rise to that bait! |
Yeah. As the older sibling, I get that. And as a sibling in general, there's always the "who does mom and dad love/like best?" as well as competition with sports, grades, you name it. It terrifies me when my brother gets better grades than I did in the same grades. Which makes me feel really guilty, but I was always the nerd and he was the athlete. If he's the athletic nerd, then I'm just the big sister. *cringe* So for Dean, who watched Sam go off to college and is always hearing about how Sam's the smart one, he probably resents that quite a bit.
Duuuuuude. I said Dean resented him for being a shoddy dad to him! Not because I necessarily think he was (although, yeah, we all know that I think he could've been a little less absent-drill-sergeant and a little more present-daddy) but because I think that this episode is trying to tell us that that's how Dean felt about it. |
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ExtraCookie
NO CHICKFLICK MOMENTS
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 269
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:34 am Post subject: Re: My Reply |
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| Quote: | | Your faith in the man knows no bounds! |
Well, I actually wouldn't go that far. And I certainly don't have blind faith (in John or anyone or anything else, for that matter! My faith has to be earned and based on logic!) If I see any proof that the man did wrong and was a shitty dad with no good excuse, then my opinion of him will change. It's just that, so far, I understand John. I truly, fully see all the mistakes made and damage done (I think maybe those who don't like John think that those of us who do are blind to these things. I'm certainly not and neither are most others I've encountered) but I also truly understand (from the info we have so far, anyway) why it came about. I just have truly seen no evidence of a man who intentionally damaged his kids. Or a man who clearly knew not to do this or that, but did it anyway even though he didn't have to or feel he had to or to do this or that but didn't do it, even though he had to or felt he had to. (Crap, did that make any sense? If so, I guess you've gotten used to my crazy, ineloquent way of speaking!) So far, I see only evidence of a man who was seriously fucked up through no fault of his own and, all things considered, did a great job with his kids. *shrug* Maybe it has to do with the fact that I have insight into what it's like to function when badly damaged. I know what it's like to struggle to do the very best you can under horrible conditions you didn't ask for and are powerless to prevent and have really no one who can help you, and how said conditions tend to cause failure, despite your best efforts. What can I say? I get the guy.  Ya know, whenever I watch the pilot, I ache when I see John. I see a glimpse of a John that was. For all I know, they didn't mean for Jeffrey to come across so warm and sweet as John in that scene but, to me, he did, even in such a brief glimpse. Just very warm and tender with his kids. BOTH of them. And light-hearted! That strikes me so much, in light of the John we saw forever afterward! If he ever was *that* John (and why would they try to fool us with the pilot?), he couldn't be the intentionally bad guy most make him out to be. And I could see in his face at the end of his screen time in that ep. that he'd already dramatically changed (and see him launch to authority/commander mode when he handed Sammy off to Dean before that). Y'all, the guy got his mind blown!
| Quote: | | But I think that Dean's feelings on the matter have always sort of leaned this way. Much as he loved and admired his father, and trusted him implicitly, I think he resented him for turning into the drill sergeant and turning Dean himself into the parent. For Dean, who was old enough to remember both parents, that would be like losing both of them -- one involuntarily and one voluntarily. *cringe* |
| Quote: | | And I think that all those reasons are why he figures Sam was doted on. Dean knew much younger than Sam what was really going on, he was the parent, he was the one who had to give everything up to take care of his baby brother, and he would see John as the reason for all that. That John took things away from Dean and gave them to Sam instead. Or made Dean give them to Sam. So in Dean's eyes, Sam was the one who had a parent -- two, really. |
I fully agree. But Dean should really direct that resentment towards the demonic forces that caused it all. (And I'm having a really thrilling feeling that some if it, if not most of it, will end up directed at his sainted mother! That's painful to think of, but it would make for awesome story telling! They've practically idolized her all their lives. How interesting if. . . well. . . we'll see!) If he isn't seeing that bigger picture yet, I really think the writers should make him eventually see it. I think Sammy already does! Go Sammy! It's funny. Dean was always defending John in the beginning, while Sammy was bitter and angry. Now, Sammy seems to have come around big time, to have come to a big understanding about John (ya know--like the stuff I understand so far?), while Dean has flipped over to "Hey, wait a minute, Dad did make a lot of mistakes and I'm starting to get pissed about it!" mode! So, I think now Sammy's gonna need to bring him back 'round and that should be the end of the issue! That'd be cool, anyway. 
| Quote: | | I'm assuming he did have to kill her. And yeah, I know he's obviously a father figure, but for Dean to come out and actually say that he's like a father to him... *tear* |
YES! I loved just *reading* that! You know Jensen and Jim will make (have made, I guess?) that scene awesome to watch/hear! And if Bobby really did have to kill his wife. . . WOW, our Sup. writers know how to kill *us,* don't they?! I can't stand it!
| Quote: | | He's already faced that nightmare, though. He's got a lot more than that. And his own fear of failing and therefore "causing" or "leading up to" Sam's death is one of the big ones. |
Yep, I can see that. Agreed. Man, I love talking to smart people!!!! This is a good place!
| Quote: | | Duuuuuude. I said Dean resented him for being a shoddy dad to him! Not because I necessarily think he was (although, yeah, we all know that I think he could've been a little less absent-drill-sergeant and a little more present-daddy) but because I think that this episode is trying to tell us that that's how Dean felt about it. |
Oh. Well, that is different. And I agree with ya about John, except instead of "could've" I'd say "should've and almost certainly would've if he were able."
_________________
"Decapitations aren't my idea of a good time, I guess." --Sammy, "Bloodlust" |
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Sarah
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Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 478
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: My Reply |
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| ExtraCookie wrote: | | I fully agree. But Dean should really direct that resentment towards the demonic forces that caused it all. (And I'm having a really thrilling feeling that some if it, if not most of it, will end up directed at his sainted mother! That's painful to think of, but it would make for awesome story telling! They've practically idolized her all their lives. How interesting if. . . well. . . we'll see!) |
Ehhh...I'm not so sure I agree that Dean should transfer all of that resentment to YED. He's already got plenty of resentment reserved for him. His dad's actions, while certainly influenced by the actions of YED and by his quest for revenge, were still his own. So Dean's resentment of his absence and the responsibility he saddled Dean with are properly placed.
Oh no! I don't even want to imagine Mary being EVIL. I hope she was roped into something she couldn't stop. She recognised YED, but she did try to STOP him, too. I don't think it'll turn out that she chose anything. I do think it'll turn out that something is up with her family and that they were somehow connected to the supernatural.
I don't think Dean could take it if his mother turned out to be evil. *cuddles him*
| Quote: | | Oh. Well, that is different. And I agree with ya about John, except instead of "could've" I'd say "should've and almost certainly would've if he were able." |
*laughs* I'd say that from my POV it's more "should've and could've but didn't because of the circumstances".  Ooo disagreement!
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